Jordan B Peterson
Dr. Jordan B Peterson and cognitive neuroscientist Dr. Donald Hoffman discuss what we know as reality, why space time is now being considered a “doomed” framework, and how consciousness can be understood as a vast probability space within which we orient ourselves.
Hoffman received a Bachelor of Arts degree in quantitative psychology from the University of California at Los Angeles, and then his Doctorate of Philosophy in computational psychology at MIT. He briefly worked as a research scientist at the MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab, before taking on the role of assistant professor at the University of California at Irvine. He is now a professor in the department of Cognitive Sciences. He has written four books (below), on the topics of human vision, perception, consciousness, and the effects of/reasons for evolution on each. He is also a key proponent of MUI (Multimodal User Interface) theory, which states that “perceptual experiences do not match or approximate properties of the objective world, but instead provide a simplified, species-specific, user interface to that world.” Hoffman argues that conscious beings have not evolved to perceive the world as it actually is but have evolved to perceive the world in a way that maximizes “fitness payoffs.”
Dr. Peterson’s extensive catalog is available now on DailyWire+: https://bit.ly/3KrWbS8
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For Dr. Donald Hoffman:
“The Case Against Reality: Why Evolution Hid the Truth from Our Eyes” (Book) https://www.amazon.com/Case-Against-Reality-Evolution-Truth-ebook/dp/B07JR1FDXH/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1OMOD0ZGPHCT9&keywords=the+case+against+reality&qid=1697060197&s=digital-text&sprefix=the+case+against%2Cdigital-text%2C189&sr=1-1
“Visual Intelligence: How We Create What We See” (Book) https://www.amazon.com/Visual-Intelligence-How-Create-What/dp/0393319679/ref=sr_1_1?crid=QZBIXXULF7VC&keywords=Visual+intelligence+hoffman&qid=1697060273&s=digital-text&sprefix=visual+intelligence+hoffman%2Cdigital-text%2C138&sr=1-1-catcorr
Dr. Hoffman on X https://twitter.com/donalddhoffman?lang=en
Dr. Hoffman’s Ted Talk https://www.ted.com/talks/donald_hoffman_do_we_see_reality_as_it_is?language=en
– Chapters –
(0:00) Coming up
(0:24) Intro
(1:30) Dr. Hoffman’s theory of perception
(4:12) Fitness payoffs
(9:40) How has “reality” been shaped by evolution?
(18:19) Iconography, constraints, and pragmatism
(23:25) The VR headset analogy, the underlying reality
(27:54) Levels of potential patterning, “specifying the grip”
(37:08) Consciousness as conceptualized in mythology
(39:55) Why spacetime is a doomed framework, the theory of conscious agents
(46:53) Karl Friston, anxiety, and entropy
(51:59) How anxiety disorders warp your probability space
(54:25) Time is the fundamental limited resource
(57:41) Our reality is a projection of what lies deeper
(1:00:00) Every scientific endeavor starts with inherent axioms of faith
(1:05:34) Dawkins, reproduction, and the role of sex
(1:13:48) Is consciousness the primary reality?
(1:16:14) That which God lacks
(1:18:47) When the math backs the impossible
(1:23:50) There is no theory of everything
(1:24:45) Evolutionary game theory
(1:28:03) What lies beyond spacetime absolutely matters within it
(1:31:00) How has this understanding of reality affected Dr. Hoffman existentially?
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Did it never occur to them, that mayyybe reality is by definition real, and math is an illusion? 😅
Is this guy saying we live in a simulation?
Smart people thinking to much about life instead of living it .
We're going to call him "Jordan B Piaget."
I like this theory of perception and feel like its fate that i only heard this story today. I just came across a fun sci-fi story about first contact with an alien creature that hasnt evolved any of the autonomic systems and so they ended up as these two story house sized beings whose concept of sentience was that it was impossible for a creature the size of a human. But because we slowly evolved our baser systems like the lizard brain it enabled us to have the efficiency to develop sentience. I thought it was just a fun story but i see it might have more sci than fi
"…only try to realize the truth:….there is no spoon!"
Why does Peterson keep trying to talk about biology and the immune system and shapes of objects? We’re talking about a simulated reality here. He’s missing the point trying to be a little too smart.
Peterson does seem enjoy the employment of theater to cover his lack of intellect.
Kudos for Jordan Peterson for having Donald Hoffman on – I have been following Hoffman's work since they began building the great wall of China. Imho he is one of the smartest people on the planet. I understand there are a lot of 'theories' out there, but if you really take time to grasp what Hoffman is saying, it is difficult not to feel that he has stumbled upon a fundamental truth of reality. I would not be surprised if his 'theory' will be proven in the next decade or so – that's if it will be allowed to succeed considering it will turn science on its head.
I love how everyone talks about esoterics, which is great as a foundational principle, but how does this help without some stepping stones on how to apply it? For example, through meditation or other practices that give it more substance. I’ve looked into Hemi-Sync, but nothing really guides you on what you can do. For instance, I’d like to detach from my headset—how would I go about doing that?
Is Jordan Peterson an illusion?
The ultimate reality is Being—something that precedes consciousness and thus implies faculties like logical and aesthetic intelligence, or logos and aisthesis. This, in turn, suggests something fundamentally real that can be perceived or experienced as "good," which further implies a "bad." This "thing" could only be existence itself—a state of pure possibility derived from some "hyper-ability" that is neither mere possibility nor impossibility, but somehow both. In other words, it transcends the duality between possibility and impossibility, a state consciousness might only become aware of later, as these two are like symbolic structures of reality that arise after it, solely to make it perceivable.
Consciousness cannot be the foundation, assuming we define consciousness merely as the ability to experience a subjective identity. Perhaps that third facet is life itself—a life revolving around an inherent, self-initializing, and self-fulfilling teleological foundation.
1:15:00
Prof. Peterson, I do respect you but you are more interested in exposing/imposing your perspective rather than learning something new. Also, your conception of Physics is distorted by your personal interpretation; Entropy has a defined equation that has enabled to predict/build working systems, your insistence to make it the Chaos looks hopeless, just remember your other interview with Sr. R. Penrose. What Dr. Hoffman said with regard time I also have considered for a while, and indeed seems that time is a purely human construct; but then HOW, how on Earth on the Universe on the Skies, can we define Physics without time? How? I would loved to ask that to Prof. Hoffman.
I wish sapolsky was in this debate as well!!
Jordan is far too used to lecturing. He hasn't gotten any better with time as per his latest interviews with Musk etc. He stifles every guest which negates my interest in his guest based content.
37:05 the causal connection can be seen with the driving game. If I turn the wheel on the controller, the car turns in the video game. It worked. But nothing has actually turned. This is analogous to picking up the hammer – it also ‘worked’, but it worked only in the same way that moving the controller made the car turn inside the video game.
It's a jump to say reality doesn't exist. There's a difference between our mental perceptions and objective reality. Humans have been oscillating between these ideas since the greeks. Sophism.
This was the smartest dialogue I have seen in a long time – and after some days of pondering Donald Hoffman’s thoughts about consciousness potentially being the foundation of everything, and this theory about how it wants to keep exploring based on Goedel’s principle… I somehow think it is an excellent idea, but it misses a major component. And I believe that that major component is love, as ridiculous as that might first sound. What we hear from Near Death experiences is a strong feeling that consciousness remains intact and is part of a greater whole – but they also all feel the strongest love as the major and most fundamental driver of everything – not a cold need or drive for exploration. But a motivation coming from unconditonal love.
Hoffman is like ‘why am I here?’
Horrible from jp. Clueless.
Nice suit Jordan ! May be the Joker can use this in next Batman movie !
I love Donald Hoffman, I don't usually sit through a whole Jordan podcast.. but this was a great talk. I loved watching Hoffman sit patiently waiting to speak and then stopping Peterson before switching topics to clarify things..
Thank you Dr Hoffman for doing this talk. It was a good one, like all your talks are..
Awful
😊
Fuck Jordan! Can you PLEASE let Donald finish his point before you leap into some over winded story!
I believe Jed McKenna would refer to this as scientific autolysis.
This is the best and most challenging and rewarding video in dialogue form I have ever seen. Dr Hoffman‘s view was new to me and opens up an entirely new perspective to me… 🙏
Word salad.
Matt Dillahunty better catch up..
Not saying any specific god of religions exist.. but just the possibility that we could be a brain in a vat, or a body in a tub with microchips in our heads
I love you and your work Jordan but too many interruptions. Let the humble and brilliant Dr.Hoffman free flow because his ideas concepts and work is cutting edge in the synthesis of science and spirituality.
Not sure I accept Hoffman’s reference to objective reality, especially if human’s render whatever they look at. That sounds suspiciously close to subjective reality. And no living creature ‘knows the thing itself’. No living creature can know the molecular structure of anything without interventionist technology but no living creature engages in encounters by starting at a molecular level. All interactions are macro-based. When I look at a building, I don’t see covalent and ionic bonding between molecules. I see a constructionist building. Did we evolve this way, or is that all we’re capable of. It makes common sense, in my view, that we package our environment in manageable macro-programs that enable us to move swiftly and accurately in relation to the ‘reality’ we construct. Hoffman’s idea if not new. We’ve known forever that we engage in macro-programs. We just haven’t had the language to describe the programs. No one has ever thought of an oncoming train as a collection of molecules with mass, that have to be avoided. We move out of the way of a train.
With all due respect, I hope Dr. Peterman takes some cue from all the comments posted here. This is for his own good and his viewers.
Math supports doest prove anything. Or is it no longer a theory? Lol im out of here because i came to hear the expert not the host in this instance.
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As an NDE researcher, the fact that Donald Hoffman shares the perspective that the higher order consciousness is viewing itself through lower order apertures in order to have a relational framework with itself, not only aligns with aggregate NDE feedback, but a hypothesis I've written called Unique Coherence. In a state where he is at the limit of his answers, which I deeply respect, he surrenders to the general statement that we are avatars, that consciousness persists after death, and that we will all laugh when we can leave this game. That is deeply aligned with the aggregate information obtained from Near Death Experiences.
Prof Donald Hoffman is on the Cutting Edge of Discovering Reality. I don't know why Dr Peterson introduced Darwin into this Discussion ! The Universe isn't Real. It's a Simulation, so what does Evolution have to do with it !
Even though I also believe Dr. Hoffman is correct in terms of space and time not being fundamental, the rest is very questionable. As Sir. Roger Penrose said: "consciousness is not a computation" which renders all mathematical approach to it the same reductionalistic misnomer as the idea of space-time. When experience is an illusion than all the experiences of math, symbolics, knowledge or understanding is an illusion as well. If math is a product of consciousness it cannot reach beyond it. It might reach beyond the space-time but then it´s like Tao – if you describe it it is not it anymore. Individual experience is obviously an ultimate tool of consciousness and probably its fundamental mechanism (one is all, holos is atomos). Collective description of an individual experience will always be a temporary idea at the best or a dogmatic prison at its worst. Intellectual recognition of the one source is well and good, the sole fact that consciousness speaks through omnipresent action is a completely different story… Locality and non-locality is where the official physics fails. The only real answer required from the science is for the question "Who am I?". That´s what the scientific inquiry is really about. And "science" either delivers or it does not. Science is an activity of people, of consciousness. Its only goal is to fulfill itself. The only way how this activity of asking questions can cease, how it can be fulfilled, is to answer the fundamental question: "Who am I?" When you know the answer you don´t have to bother with math. When you don´t math can help you to lead you there but there its job is finished. Dear Dr. Hoffman, not that space-time is finished or doomed, the math itself is doomed as correctly explained by Goedel´s paradox : "Math can only prove itself, it cannot prove anything outside of it." Mathematics is a good tool, a useful language, but nothing more. When I realize I am One with everything I usually do not go calculating how so as I understand this very activity goes against my realization of the One Self… Understanding the fundamental answer does not generate further questions. Everything is a question. I am the answer. Math and physics is one and the same, it´s just that official physics is a misunderstanding of basic math. 1=1, 0≠0. 0 defined as integer (non zero value) proves inexistence of inexistence, inexistence of emptiness, inexistence of an end and a beginning… Illusionary nature of 3D physics which does not mean inexistent physics, it only means 1 non-physical reference frame and 1 physical observer, 1 eternal existence and its infinite shift through its infinite number of positions… Newton´s 3 body problem and Heissenberg´s uncertainty principle disguised as a problem of quantity rather than a "problem" of onenessness, of unity. All uncertainty and superposition collapses (finity, locality) are both illusionary in their nature. Induced, not permanent. Superposition is permanent, certainty of existence is permanent. Collapse is a shift, not a collapse as such. To assume that 1≠1 and 0=0 (math we were told in school) works only to some extent…after that the natural expanding mind has to take responsibility, tools do not bear any responsibility, the mind that uses them does…and everything it does, everything it is, reflects.
Personally, I loved the video and the conversation.
5 minutes in and you can see Hoffman thinking 'why did I agree to this and sit here while he interviews himself'. Still keeps his cool throughout 😂
Peterson is an @ss
Please define "Reality" before.
Jordan should discuss this with Leo. That would make for a precious video.
I was walking past a line of people holding papers 📄 thousands of people lined up in a structure I’d like to say a mall with no stores because that hall had that feeling to it and I knew they were lined up to see me but they had no idea what I looked like so as I was walking the opposite direction of where they were facing I walked like they weren’t there.
I REALLY HAVE TO THANK DONALD HOFFMAN FOR THE PATIENCE SHOWED IN THIS INTERVIEW.
A GREAT MAN.
"Oh and senator, love the suit." Just my opinon but the continued clown suits and mythological symbology obsession aren't helping me continue to listen to JP. I stand with JP on freedom of expression and against compelled speech. But "religion poisons everything" – Chistopher Hitchens. Even great minds.
What biologist was JP talking about? I'd love to listen to this talk about the immune system.
I've given up on Peterson podcasts…he can't get out of the way of himself.
holistic interconnectedness and possibilities
Very interesting dialogue between two greats in their fields. I think Dr. Hoffman has broken the code for the theory of consciousness. All other theories of consciousness dead end in the chain of cause and effect in the idea of “space time”! So therefore we can conclude that it transcends to deeper levels outside of “Spacetime”..Consciousness Agents.. Can’t wait for the next chapter..!
The problem scientist have is that they want to use mathematics to explain everything to them so much it hurts their minds. They need to take a large step back and look at the human experience. This means listening to the people who claim to have these experiences. Jordan is a phycologist so he has the material available to him but he tends to get bogged down in logic while trying to keep himself within the bounds of the other sciences in case he gets his knuckles rapped. It would seem that the best we can do we have already done or others have but we have ignored or ridiculed them. Other then that we have nothing to gain by busting our heads on this subject other then perhaps learning plenty of humility for what we don't know and just as importantly will never know during this mortal existence. One useful and pleasurable avenue could be becoming better enabled to use and manipulate our ability to lucid dream.
We may like to speculate in order that we sell more books or get paid to perform more lectures, but apart from a better standard of living what do any of us gain from this? So we can see another colour or imagine that something is so, where does this get any of us other the one day closer to finding out one way or the other anyway?
Sorry to be a big wet blanket, but if someone can give me a clue, it would be much appreciated.