Does Consciousness Have Meaning? | Episode 703 | Closer To Truth

43 thoughts on “Does Consciousness Have Meaning? | Episode 703 | Closer To Truth”

1. Sounds like dancing all around the subject without actually making contact with it

2. It's becoming clear that with all the brain and consciousness theories out there, the proof will be in the pudding. By this I mean, can any particular theory be used to create a human adult level conscious machine. My bet is on the late Gerald Edelman's Extended Theory of Neuronal Group Selection. The lead group in robotics based on this theory is the Neurorobotics Lab at UC at Irvine. Dr. Edelman distinguished between primary consciousness, which came first in evolution, and that humans share with other conscious animals, and higher order consciousness, which came to only humans with the acquisition of language. A machine with primary consciousness will probably have to come first.

   The thing I find special about the TNGS is the Darwin series of automata created at the Neurosciences Institute by Dr. Edelman and his colleagues in the 1990's and 2000's. These machines perform in the real world, not in a restricted simulated world, and display convincing physical behavior indicative of higher psychological functions necessary for consciousness, such as perceptual categorization, memory, and learning. They are based on realistic models of the parts of the biological brain that the theory claims subserve these functions. The extended TNGS allows for the emergence of consciousness based only on further evolutionary development of the brain areas responsible for these functions, in a parsimonious way. No other research I've encountered is anywhere near as convincing.

   I post because on almost every video and article about the brain and consciousness that I encounter, the attitude seems to be that we still know next to nothing about how the brain and consciousness work; that there's lots of data but no unifying theory. I believe the extended TNGS is that theory. My motivation is to keep that theory in front of the public. And obviously, I consider it the route to a truly conscious machine, primary and higher-order.

   My advice to people who want to create a conscious machine is to seriously ground themselves in the extended TNGS and the Darwin automata first, and proceed from there, by applying to Jeff Krichmar's lab at UC Irvine, possibly. Dr. Edelman's roadmap to a conscious machine is at https://arxiv.org/abs/2105.10461

3. Life's sweet mysteries!!! Will we ever know? There is definitely something "explainable" about everything,especially our existence, but it is just information to evaluate and assess which is more believable or convincing. The fact is, we don't know!!!

4. I think McGinn is postulating that the hidden properties of personal consciousness are actually intelligence and meaning.

5. McGinn's taxonomy of can consciousness can be applied to biology and life. We can say everything is alive etc. But all of these positions are just different sides of the same coin.

6. Consciousness has many uses and the best way to understand something is how or what the supposed question does or what are its attributes. For starters consciousness is a navigation instrument and a survival tool it could be suggested that consciousness is ancient in this respect going back to early forms of life and even beyond with varying degrees of freedom or frequencies of a similar construct. It would of been realized through evolution even beyond evolution but at least at a evolutionary scale to promote the well being of life to extend or help in the quest for survival linked to sight hearing information intakes things of this intent. The more information the more one resist death or survives the more elaboration or evolution can proceed it coupled with different forms of learning depending on form shape and time of life and environments. But the special thing about consciousness coupled with survival is that consciousness itself is a manifestation of survival in mind its a way of survival becoming a reality in mind or the psychology of survival in mind or the median into which survival is realized in mind the process itself creates a conscious state of being or it enhances it through physical process coupled with information gathering and size of information bubble or brain etc. What consciousness is if you go back in time is a product of survival itself without that process of survival a conscious state is not possible it needs survival for it to work. What consciousness is is a super position of survival itself meaning that survival can be in every form of life at any time any where because its been coded or copied. A good question to ask is when does human life become conscious or life in general and what specific thing ignites it?

7. Other than the flailing arm movements, I have never found a less useful explanation than that of Marvin Minsky. He basically spent 5 minutes saying absolutely nothing.

8. Consciousness is a product of evolution. Sensory consciousness evolved around 520 mya in the Cambrian probably in fish and/or birds. As the brain evolved to increasing complexity, consciousness complexity followed suit. We just happen to be living in this small window of time when consciousness has evolved to a high complexity. If our species exists in 500 years, I wonder if consciousness will have evolved even more.

9. these guys are missing the boat..
   Hammerof & Penrose have the answer.

10. Consciousness is flow of energy

11. Promissory complexity, or simple spirituality or some combination of both. Everything the human body is is meant for to do things in an environment. why should we be geared to do all the things humans can do whatsoever? Meaning is a force in nature. There's no other reason why the human body is so purposefully coherent and functional.

    What is a hand other than an instrument for manipulating objects? That is a higher order of function then a rock as a paper weight. Humans are the highest achievement of the natural world. Far from perfect, but ingenious nonetheless.

    How much of a miracle is it to get any intellect from it's total absence? Humanity will insist that if you arrange physical properties in just the right way, poof you will have consciousness. That answers nothing about how or why humans find meaningful conceptions about reality. Even if you understand the mechanics of all human faculties, you are still left with the problem of identity, and the possibility of something very much like a soul. Without the soul you have a perfect zombie, and all the tools of consciousness, and no receiver.

    But it is good to tackle consciousness from all angles. Even if it will remain an open ended question forever. I just think the illusion of natural, gradual complexity won't ever defeat spiritual notions about how consciousness has arisen. An endless study of brain awaits, but that's a good thing. Inner experience of identity, and identity itself eludes all instruments. So, religion, and science will forever argue, and so be it. I hope junk spirituality will just go away though. Cheers to disagreement.

12. The program makes sure that most humans see and agree on the same experience, otherwise this thing called life or reality won't work.

13. Consciousness is when I suddenly realized I had been conscious previously ?????
    Great semantics !

14. I hope you find your answers Dr. Kuhn. I think the more we learn about the nature of the universe and reality itself, the closer we will come to understanding consciousness. The brain should look outward, not inward. If the universe had not created the mind, the mind would not have been able to question it's existence in the universe.

15. Consciousness IS meaning-giver

16. Colonized? Doesn't want to talk about anything for fear someone will interpret it as wrongthink? Not much of a philosopher.

17. I am a physicist and I will provide sound arguments that prove that consciousness is not generated by the brain and that the origin of our mental experiences is not physical (in my youtube channel you can find a video with more detailed explanations). My arguments prove the existence in us of an indivisible unphysical element, which is usually called soul or spirit.
    
    Physicalism/naturalism is based on the belief that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain, but it can be proved that this hypothesis is inconsistent with our scientific knowledge and implies logical contradictions. There are in fact 2 arguments that prove such hypothesis contains a logical fallacy.
    
    1) All the alleged emergent properties are just simplified and approximate descriptions of underlying processes and arbitrary abstractions of the actual physical processes. In fact, the underlying microscopic processes are described by the fundamental laws of physics and no emergent properties are involved in such description; this implies that all the alleged emergent properties are only arbitrary and approximate descriptions of the actual physical processes. An approximate description is only an abstraction, and no actual entity exists per se corresponding to that approximate description, simply because an actual entity is exactly what it is and not an approximation of itself; an approximate description is an idea that exists only in a conscious mind. This means that emergent properties are concepts that refer to something that has an inherent conceptual nature (abstract ideas).
    
    2) An emergent property is defined as a property that is possessed by a set of elements that its individual components do not possess. The point is that every set of elements is inherently an arbitrary abstraction which implies the arbitrary choice of determining which elements are to be included in the set. Therefore, any property attributed to the set as a whole is inherently arbitrary because it depends on the arbitrary choice used to define the set. Arbitrariness is a precondition for the existence of any emergent property, and consciousness is a precondition for the existence of arbitrariness.
    
    Both arguments 1 and 2 are sufficient to prove that every emergent property requires a consciousness from which to be conceived. Therefore, that conceiving consciousness cannot be the emergent property itself. Conclusion: consciousness cannot be an emergent property.

    In other words, emergence is a purely conceptual idea that is applied onto matter for taxonomy purposes. On a fundamental material level, there is no brain, or heart, or any higher level groups or sets, but just fundamental particles interacting. Emergence itself is just a category imposed by a mind, so the mind can't itself be explained as an emergent phenomenon. 

    If a concept refers to “something” whose existence presupposes the existence of arbitrariness, such “something” cannot exist independently of a conscious mind and can only exist as an idea in a conscious mind. For example consider the property of "beauty": beauty is intrisically subjective, abstract and implies arbitrariness; therefore, beauty cannot exist independently of a conscious mind. My arguments prove that emergent properties, as well as complexity, are of the same nature as beauty; they refer to something that is intrinsically subjective and arbitrary, which is sufficient to prove that consciousness cannot be an emergent property because consciousness is the precondition for the existence of any emergent property.

    The "brain" doesn't objectively and physically exist as a single entity. We create the concept of the brain by arbitrarily "separating" it from everything else; however, there is no objective criterion that allows us to identify what separates brain and non-brain. Obviously, consciousness cannot be a property of an abstraction, because an abstraction cannot conceive of itself. Any set of elements is an arbitrary abstraction because it implies the arbitrary choice of including some elements in the set and excluding others. Physically the brain is not a single entity and therefore every alleged property of the brain is an arbitrary concept, a subjective abstraction. This is sufficient to prove that the hypothesis that consciousness is a property of the brain is nonsensical because it contains an intrinsic logical contradiction; consciousness is a necessary precondition for the existence of arbitrariness, and therefore the existence of consciousness cannot be a consequence of all that implies arbitrariness.

    Conversely, if the concept refers to “something” that is NOT inherently arbitrary or subjective or conceptual, then such “something” can exist independently of consciousness. An example of a concept that does not refer to something that is inherently subjective and presupposes the existence of arbitrariness, is the concept of “indivisible entity”.
    
    Consciousness can exist only as the property of an indivisible entity, because only an indivisible entity does not imply any kind of arbitrariness; furthermore, this indivisible entity must interact globally with brain processes because we know that there is a correlation between brain processes and consciousness. This indivisible entity cannot be physical, since accordng to the laws of physics, there is no physical entity with such properties; therefore this indivisible entity corresponds to what is traditionally called soul or spirit. Marco Biagini

18. The Origin of Consciousness i. the Breakdown of the BiCameral Mind by Julian Janes

19. Is it just me or does Robert look like MaximillianDood from the future? (and a different career)

20. The mind is the only bridge to reality

21. Why people making consciousness so complex! When we build a thinking computer it will clear that its all about brain

22. There is no NOW. Every sense of now, is based on some representation of the immediate past.

23. “ what do we think consciousness is”
    Who’s “ we”

24. “ it’s not an allusion “
    Agreed, what is being fooled by the allusion?”
    Materialism suggest we are meaningless as a chair, just more complex.

25. I love the curmudgeons who have it all figured out.

26. Pls , the opening music name, thx

27. Consciousness is a closed system. A close system can never understand its own nature. We can understand the RULES of the CLOSED SYSTEM. But we can not attribute value or meaning to those rules. I think, therefore, I am. Thats all we have and all we will ever have. Maybe the cosmos is alive. Slowly evolving so it can experience itself through the eyes of biological life. If that were the case, we would be hopelessly unaware of why. Look at all our great science. What does science or physics do? It tells us HOW. How particles interact, how they move and what implications that has on the real world. What science HAS NEVER DONE……is figure out why. Not one equation answers why. Why have gravity. Why need mass. Why have a speed limit inside the universe. The Why is Consciousness grand experiment into trying to understands itself. But it is a hobby of the mind. Shall we say…..a way to articulate the world and pass the time of our ever shortened lives.

28. That intoduction alone was the best thing i heard in my life,so damn inspiring that it took me on a trip

29. To understand human consciousness we must start to understand the brain functions and the basic "consciousness" in much much simpler organisms.

30. how this channel can only have 250K follower, to me this fact said a lot about the state of the world

31. Consciousness gives meaning to everything.

32. You allow yourself only …. Until you realise that even your reason isn't yours.

33. Does blue have purpose?

34. If I remember correctly, those hands play great piano.

35. This is a virtual reality.
    To paraphrase DeLenn, the universe is consciousness made manifest.
    Trying to work itself out.

36. recently some semi-humans claim that the consciousness subject came to the surface because of the current epidemic!
    they promote their silly theories of uniting the spiritual world with science!
    all mankind should be aware of what's going on nowadays, all mankind needs is to know themselves, who they are, and how their mind works, and that humanity is the proud of mankind and that there is a huge difference between intelligence (the pride of mankind) and the destructive irrational meanness (malice).
    the only truth mankind has is science (the progress pace of science is already so slow due to many reasons ) what some hallucinators doing will endanger science and leads humanity to the darkness again.
    this existence is very complicated, it will take humankind thousands of years to think in a scientific method about self-concept or as they marketing for (the cosmological consciousness!)
    no one knows what is consciousness, so how to merge the so-called spiritual world with science?! with hallucinations?!
    the only truth mankind has is science, polluting it with their hallucinations will take mankind to the darkness no doubt.
    all mankind needs is to rethink in wise logical way about the future.
    human beings don't need more hallucinations! they need to be more wise, matured and being rational entities, taking in consideration that humanity and intelligence are the pride of mankind, leave the rest for science and the future generations through science.
    leave science alone semi-humans, all human beings need is to understand themselves, and changing psychology is a smart wise way.
    right now nothing more.

37. 18:50 Name of the music please.

38. I don't know what consciousness is, but I do know that my thermostat is more conscious than my Tesla, and my Tesla is more conscious than the Dalai Lama.

39. Jaron Lanier is a really interesting guy, but man oh man what a freak.

    I'm so grateful that we can only see and hear him here but not smell him.

    I suspect bathing just isn't a thing in his world.

    And he's seriously obese.

    Even in this video, which was filmed over ten years ago, he'd taken to wearing one of those tent sized 7X shirts that only the morbidly obese wear.

    Instead of dieting, he seems to have decided to try to make himself appear thinner by having really long dreadlocks, in hopes that his girth will seem smaller due to the length of his 'hair'.

    It's not working.

40. 18:40 10:49 if you wanted a tool how would this tool be given

41. unconscious vs lack of conscious vs subconscious vs conscious vs absence of each previous term

42. find something that the brain is not capable of doing on it's own or with some interactions with the presumed external reality inputs being processes neurologically but how to observe it or how to touch it or how to interact with this thing this is the process by which we could discover how the brain interacts with consciousness

43. the brain processes what could be referenced to or what is thought to be information but what about the absence of information what is that in nature?

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