MeaningofLife.tv
Watch the entire conversation on MeaningofLife.tv http://meaningoflife.tv/videos/37021
Robert Wright (Bloggingheads.tv, The Evolution of God, Nonzero) and David Chalmers (New York University, The Australian National University)
Recorded on October 24, 2016
Source
With all the trillions of measurements the brain makes, within itself every second, possibly forcing continual collapse, within itself, on a vast scale. is that perpetual state of collapse consciousness? I'm rubbish at this stuff but i find consciousness fascinating.
Oh, boy, more bullshit about quantum mechanics.
Thank you, excellent & clear discussion!
No.
So have the experiments been done? What did they find? Was the theory falsified?
Personally, I think it is conscious knowledge of a physical system that collapses its wave function and makes it actual rather than just a cloud or wave of possibilities/probabilities.
But if this has somehow been falsified, then I guess I'd have to accept that result…
6:41
"Superpostition" is simply consciousness inability to understand itself in the context of 4th dimensional reality held in a nth dimensional mesh.
We are not strictly "created" by God, we are of God. God is unbound by the causal constraint of 4th dimensional reality, and rather aware of it.
All living things are conduit of the essence of the universe.
Its dumb, but the truth.
Jesus let the guy talk. What a bad host????? I can’t get through because of him interrupting
Interesting discussion, some I can't really comprehend. I am, however, surprised on his take of the importance of consciousness. I mean, he even named just humans being the observer as a possibility just as all creatures below. This I find a very narcissistic approach.
Evolutionary we just evolved from apes, with almost countless steps in between. Some how one step made it that one ancestor had a special kind of consciousness? It's just a very natural thing that comes in degrees. Problem being, we can't comprehend having the consciousness of lets say an ant or a cell even. But even within humans we have people with severe brain damage only able to eat and blink, do they have consciousness? It is wrongly used as another word for intelligence.
When you look at the small time humans evolved from the most simple forms of life, relative to the age of the universe, we are a very limited life form, trying to survive and not die. This said, when you look at the complexity of quantum theory, with rules we can't comprehend like superposition and time not being singular, we are too simple to ever understand. This is literally the reason we have 'created' gods, when something arises we can't understand, we have to just give it a name so we don't have to further investigate, and accept it.
Whatever quantum theory entails and the other rules of the universe, I would not find it unlikely that the current human life form will never be able to understand. However, I do know that we are able to comprehend more and more to a certain degree, just like we know understand gravity and relativity of time.
If consciousness is intrinsically 'all', then the act of measurement would initiate collapse of the wave function of both consciousness and the electron. Consciousness needn't be limited by superposition as it would occupy all aprobable positions simultaneously (a-temporally) therefore never entering any specific superposition. Consciousness is not separate from the electron as the act of measurement is in itself a collapse of the wave function of consciousness, from the observer's position. The electron wave function collapses as the same event from the perspective of its own location in spacetime.
What if consciousness does not derive in our brain, but rather exists within space. Hidden in front of our eyes, unmeasurable, yet observed. Maybe it’s our brain, the tool we use to experience consciousness, that provides the INFORMATION that determines the state of a particle. Maybe we need to look within for the answers.
Ok, the consciousness collapses the quantum wave function, but does it affect the result or the definite state is random?
Is the collapse a butterfly effect? Only needing a trigger.
Thoughts are the wave function collapsed and consciousness is the wave function. And so are illusions created.
just like how video game works. it is in form of algorithm and math all the time without definitive state. When the player came, play the game, and move the character to see, those algorthm start to materialize become definitive pixel. this is how program works.
Matter if not measured (played or seen by player), is just a wave function (literaly algorithm in math). when the player, us, see, it materialized become definitive particle (pixel) that we can see.
see how it so similar between how game works with our world
Superposition might be an illusion caused by our measurement speed of the system.
If physical interaction collapses the wave function, explain the Quantum Eraser.
Therefore, before the existence of consciousness beings, the universe was in a 14 bi years state of superposition ???
We'll it's the is the tree still their if their is no one in the forest to look at it the idea that cousiness effect physical reality is nothing new a lot of ancient cultures beliefs that science laughed at is now provable by modern science and I think this will be no different in the end why can't both be true the many worlds be and cousiness be effecting the physical experiment itself science is ALWAYS one or the other.
So could we imagine that prayers are useful in the way that general consciousness (probably what you call god) collapses the quantum wave function, thus having effect in the world we all experience?
I was actually thinking along this lines with a pen problem. I write with a pen so therefore is exists due to my observations. But if I put the pen down and leave town, does it return back to superposition? If it does, why does it still appear as a pen on replaying the CCTV footage?
LMAO. I love it!
Guy on the right is looking less than thrilled during the intro.
Oh so pleased to have found MeaningofLife.tv!
While your ideas of consciousness might not popular with physicists or philosophers, they make perfect sense to a mystic.
Regarding duality, consider that consciousness is a totality, and that the observer and the observed are simply different aspects of this totality (like whirlpools and geysers are still water). This concept is at the root of mystical tradition.
Consciousness lives in the classical world so takes on the rules and laws of the large and definite reality , when measuring reality one particle does not produce a wave and does leave or makes a definite position to measure,. This is just a guess , but there is a way to test it , I can't wait for some one to do it.
Consciousness and physics? What is wrong with you people…
When you haven’t even studied QM for a bit and ask some questions man I tell you
can anyone show me a demonstration of the actual wave function collapse?
I sometimes suspect that the many many collapses of the wave function everywhere each second could be caused by the mysterious, which like that always add information to the physical universe, answers desires, design proteins in biological organisms and imparts intelligence in biological organisms beyond current machine intelligence, which is not currently directly influenced by the mysterious, because it is designed not to be influenced by quantum noise in the environment.
Question: I am partial to the idea that consciousness may arise from certain structures as a fundamental property (perhaps Tononi's Phi, for example). But I don't understand why that need be described as even a 'kind' of *dualism*. We have emergent properties and other fundamental laws in nature and none of these require dualism. It seems to me a universe where certain systems produce conscious experience is still monistic in the sense that it is all one interdependent system.
Basic error in syntax is: consciousness as being non physical (or out of this world) is often confused with superconscious mind.
The superconscious mind colapses wave function. Mind is physical.
Additionally, consciousness is never creative, all creativity is done in physical domain. Consciousness is attributeless and its purpose is not known to humans (as attributeless cannot be imputed with property of performing action of wave collapsing)
Are you guys aware of this??? https://youtu.be/nRSBaq3vAeY
Is super position a partcal in every possible position, or the possible positions the partical could be in once it comes into existence? Could super position be frozen ? Or would the attempt at freezing a superposition state cause the colapse?.
Is it the measurement that causes colapse? Or the interuption in the system caused by the measurement.
If we all live in our own individual reality, maybe our individual conciousness is somehow paired to our reality, making our conciousness colapse the wave function with in our own reality.
Also is consciousness in the human mind? Or external ?
is it measurement or the interference in the system caused by the measurement causing the colapse?
Yes.
Consciousness is in superposition the moment you start thinking. Imagine a lake in your head and volla, you have conscious superposition. Ya dig?
wavefunctions are collapsing all the time when they interact with other particles. it's just that measurement by a physicist is a special case of interaction.
QM is a slide rule , when you stop measuring the wave function collapses, because it is a process and dynamic. The observer is completely within the virtual ERB , between two things in contrast. The answer is explainable by neither sliderule alone, hence why there are two theories.
Let me get this straight: You shoot electrons, ONE AT A TIME through two slits, and if you do this for a long time, they will eventually form the exact same pattern on the back wall as if you shined light between the two slits. The particles behave like waves.
This is the initial problem: when you shine light, you have simultaneously traveling photons that bump into one another causing interference, the peaks and valleys of cancellation, so that the pattern on the wall has several impact points smeared out; the wave pattern. But if you fire ONE electron individually at a time, there is nothing for the single particle to interfere with, so you should get just TWO impact points after traveling between the slits; the particle pattern. But you don't. YOU GET A WAVE PATTERN.
The question is, why do particles behave like waves of light over time? As if there is a record of where one particle has already traveled and dictates the next particle should go to a different place, until the collection of thousands of electrons make an interference pattern, without the INGREDIENT OF INTERFERENCE, which in itself is a paradox; the problem that precipitates THE MEASUREMENT; the deeper observance of what is going on to cause the interference pattern.
Now add the observer to see what's happening to the individual particle that gives it the INFORMATION when traveling alone; one at a time without interference, to determine where it should land on the back wall. When they measure where the particle is along the journey, typically where they can likely detect where the individual electron is; at the slits, the interference pattern does NOT build up over time, instead you get just two impact points on the back wall, the same thing you would expect if you shot marbles through two holes, there is a limited range of places the marbles could land.
This is what they are trying to sort out, NOT why the wave collapses, but why particles behave like waves in the first place; why there is a wave pattern at all. To say that measurement; the means by which you detect the particle, knocks the particles around so they act like particles is REDUNDANT. The particle was acting like a WAVE over time. But detecting it makes it act the WAY IT SHOULD HAVE IN THE FIRST PLACE; The undetected instance.
What happens to the electron that is free of measurement/observance, that goes away when measured; when we want to know where that particle is picking up the instructions for landing in a wave pattern. WHY? It's just ONE particle. What got taken away or added by OBSERVANCE to change its travel behavior? That's the question. Put it this way. If the particle travels one foot to the slit, and one foot to the back wall where it forms one or the other pattern, why does measuring it at the slit change the way it travels after measurement that last foot; after precise examination or observance? So let's change the distances. One foot to the slit and two feet after. Now, if it forms an interference pattern over time without observance, and still forms a particle pattern with observance, compare the two experiments, the two foot double slit vs the three foot double slit. In both, the electron gets two feet of undisturbed, unmeasured, and unobserved travel. Yet, in both experiments, if you measure where that electron is along its journey, it behaves like matter; a particle. If you don't, it behaves like light; a wave.
The problem this discussion deals with, badly, is what happens to the INFORMATION that caused the particle to act like a wave before it was measured? Why is the PARTICLE EVER behaving like a WAVE?
This is where all the mysticism comes in and materialism gets out of whack. We know we fired electrons one at a time. The result on the back wall, OVER TIME, shows a WAVE PATTERN. As if not knowing exactly where matter is, without having a preconceived notion of existence, a precise measurement, matter behaves like PROBABILITY waves. But the second we add our conscious concept of hardness, of material, of REALITY, the laws of matter; material physics comes into existence as an artifact of consciousness. The simulation universe theory, saying the stuff we're trying to describe only becomes what we think it is when we observe it closely or look at it.
So, saying observance collapses the wave function misses the initial problem: The particle was behaving like a wave until we try to figure out why it does – then it goes back to behaving like a particle, which it should have been doing in the first place. This all would not be worth discussing if the particles never displayed a wave pattern over time.
The question these guys are raising is this: When the particle over time behaves like a wave, it carries INFORMATION or lacks it. When we observe the particle, do we give it MATERIAL INFORMATION, do we make it act like matter because of what's in our heads? It begs the question, what is matter really?
Thank you information age, I was just wondering about this subject and youtube offers me this video. Interesting discussion, thanks.
How do they know the particles behaved like a wave if they couldn't observe it? When they did observe it and it collapsed the wave function, how did they observe it? Also isn't it photons from observing it that cause the wave collapse not consciousness?
I was expecting this to be sponsored by deepak chopra at the end.
Handlebar 'stache is nice!!! You can be a western style outlaw for consciousness.
It (our physical reality emerging from quanta) makes sense with simulation hypothesis.
if you think it collapses because of consciousness but I think it collapses even when observed by a camera which isn't conscious because it has to do with the electrons being absorbed by the film of the camera or whatever the digital equivalent is. I am not trying to take for granted that it is impossible that our consciousness collapses the function but if it were true then that would make our universe so much more difficult to explain and we would have to rework so much of our thoughts and because it requires more reworking that means it is less consistent which makes me suspect it is not related to consciousness. Maybe the way we are thinking about it is backward. Maybe instead of us thinking about finiteness and concreteness being a property of the universe instead it is a property of our brain.
so to say that electrons are waves but collapse when observed is inaccurate. Instead electrons (and therefore everything else) are only perceived as particles because our thoughts cannot express quantum states so we interpret the waves and all other quantum states as particles and binary states
so its less that our brain effects reality but that reality is more than our brain can represent and there is a larger more infinite and more based on possibility rather than fixedness out there that we can't ever understand at least not using the tool of our brain
but because the brain is the only tool that we have we must concern ourselves with the finite reality we are presented. Of course we should also recognize the possibility of a larger less rigid universe and build the tools to investigate it. Which is what quantum scientists are attempting now
Do you think it is logical that if the future is unfolding relative to the atoms, if we look down at the individual atoms we will find probability? This is an invitation to see a theory on the nature of time! In this theory we have an emergent uncertain future continuously coming into existence relative to the spontaneous absorption and emission of photon energy. Within such a process the wave particle duality of light and matter in the form of electrons is forming a blank canvas that we can interact with forming the possible into the actual! The future is unfolding with each photon electron coupling or dipole moment relative to the atoms of the periodic table and the individual wavelengths of the electromagnetic spectrum. As part of a universal process of energy exchange that forms the ever changing world of our everyday life the ‘past’ has gone forever. At the smallest scale of this process the ‘past’ is represented by anti-matter annihilation with the symmetry between matter and anti-matter representing the symmetry between the future and the past as the future unfolds photon by photon. In such a theory the mathematics of quantum mechanics represents the physics of ‘time’ with the classical physics of Newton representing processes over a period of time, as in Newton’s differential equations. In my videos I explain how this process is relative to temperature and the phase changes of matter.
Universal consciousness (the wave form state) when transmigrated into micro consiousnesses, becomes subjected to "ego" by the illusion of permanence and temporarily freezes the wave function.