Lex Fridman
Joscha Bach is the VP of Research at the AI Foundation, previously doing research at MIT and Harvard. Joscha work explores the workings of the human mind, intelligence, consciousness, life on Earth, and the possibly-simulated fabric of our universe.
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Incredible comment by ernst.gemeint showing some of the topics mentioned:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-2P3MSZrBM&lc=UgzzoW0z_tyeLyatEJB4AaABAg
EPISODE LINKS:
Joscha’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/Plinz
Joscha’s Website: http://bach.ai/
PODCAST INFO:
Podcast website:
https://lexfridman.com/podcast
Apple Podcasts:
https://apple.co/2lwqZIr
Spotify:
https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8
RSS:
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Full episodes playlist:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4
Clips playlist:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOeciFP3CBCIEElOJeitOr41
OUTLINE:
0:00 – Introduction
3:14 – Reverse engineering Joscha Bach
10:38 – Nature of truth
18:47 – Original thinking
23:14 – Sentience vs intelligence
31:45 – Mind vs Reality
46:51 – Hard problem of consciousness
51:09 – Connection between the mind and the universe
56:29 – What is consciousness
1:02:32 – Language and concepts
1:09:02 – Meta-learning
1:16:35 – Spirit
1:18:10 – Our civilization may not exist for long
1:37:48 – Twitter and social media
1:44:52 – What systems of government might work well?
1:47:12 – The way out of self-destruction with AI
1:55:18 – AI simulating humans to understand its own nature
2:04:32 – Reinforcement learning
2:09:12 – Commonsense reasoning
2:15:47 – Would AGI need to have a body?
2:22:34 – Neuralink
2:27:01 – Reasoning at the scale of neurons and societies
2:37:16 – Role of emotion
2:48:03 – Happiness is a cookie that your brain bakes for itself
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I really enjoyed this conversation with Joscha. Here's the outline:
0:00 – Introduction
3:14 – Reverse engineering Joscha Bach
10:38 – Nature of truth
18:47 – Original thinking
23:14 – Sentience vs intelligence
31:45 – Mind vs Reality
46:51 – Hard problem of consciousness
51:09 – Connection between the mind and the universe
56:29 – What is consciousness
1:02:32 – Language and concepts
1:09:02 – Meta-learning
1:16:35 – Spirit
1:18:10 – Our civilization may not exist for long
1:37:48 – Twitter and social media
1:44:52 – What systems of government might work well?
1:47:12 – The way out of self-destruction with AI
1:55:18 – AI simulating humans to understand its own nature
2:04:32 – Reinforcement learning
2:09:12 – Commonsense reasoning
2:15:47 – Would AGI need to have a body?
2:22:34 – Neuralink
2:27:01 – Reasoning at the scale of neurons and societies
2:37:16 – Role of emotion
2:48:03 – Happiness is a cookie that your brain bakes for itself
Lex face in the intro brilliantly foreshadows what's to come. His eyebrows are like "strap in mutherfuckas"
Episode 100?
Amazing!
I think it is meant more symbolic . To forse us to look at planet earth. Same with population growth . Encourage humans to feel welcome. No idea what his life is like now . But he won a big fight . And he has many children .so he must be worried about the state of what we promote as ‘good’ for us primates
2:48 – SUFFERING is the result of caring about the things you cannot change . . . . boom!
Emergent Subjective Theory (EST): A Comprehensive Explanation
Emergent Subjective Theory (EST) posits that the universe functions as a subjectivity generator, producing subjective experiences as emergent properties of complex systems. Subjective experience, including consciousness, is not an isolated phenomenon but a product of the universe’s inherent tendency to generate complexity. This theory not only addresses the hard problem of consciousness—why subjective experience exists—but also redefines human organization and our relationship to the universe. Below is a comprehensive explanation of EST, supported by examples and parallels to existing theories.
Core Principles of EST
Subjectivity as an Emergent Property
EST argues that subjective experience arises from the interactions and complexity of systems. This emergence is comparable to other phenomena in nature, such as weather patterns, life, or even market economies.
Example from Complexity Theory: Just as a colony of ants exhibits collective intelligence that no single ant possesses, subjective experience emerges from the complex interactions of neurons in the brain or agents within a system.
The Universe as a Subjectivity Generator
The universe can be evaluated by what it produces: systems capable of generating subjective experiences. Just as stars produce light or gravity emerges from mass, subjective experience is a natural output of the universe’s increasing complexity.
Parallel to Panpsychism: While panpsychism claims that consciousness is a fundamental property of all matter, EST narrows this to emergent subjectivity—arising only in systems complex enough to generate it, like human brains or collective social systems.
Subjectivity and Human Organization
EST links subjective experience to human organization, arguing that our ability to form complex societies, communicate, and create shared belief systems stems from our unique subjective experiences. These experiences add variation and adaptability, driving cultural evolution and survival.
Example from Evolutionary Theory: Language and culture evolved in humans to organize and adapt better than other species. Subjective experience—like the perception of love, fear, or trust—fosters cooperation and enhances survival.
The Role of Qualia
Qualia, or the "felt" aspects of experience (e.g., the redness of red), are not metaphysical mysteries but confirmations of the subjective process at work. They arise as part of the system’s need to process and respond to stimuli efficiently.
Parallel to Integrated Information Theory (IIT): Just as IIT quantifies consciousness through the integration of information, EST interprets qualia as the specific output of this integration—a functional necessity in subjective systems.
Emergence and Complexity: Supporting EST
Emergence is central to EST. It describes how new properties or behaviors arise when a system’s complexity surpasses a certain threshold. Subjective experience, in this framework, is an emergent property of the universe’s complexity.
Examples of Emergence in Nature
Consciousness from Neural Networks
The human brain, a system of 86 billion neurons, exhibits consciousness—a property absent in individual neurons. This emergence mirrors EST's claim that subjective experience arises from the organization of matter, not its individual components.
Life from Non-Life
The transition from non-living chemical systems to living organisms (abiogenesis) is a classic example of emergence. Life is not found in any individual molecule but in the organization and interaction of molecules—a parallel to how subjectivity emerges from complex systems.
Social Systems and Human Organization
In human societies, collective behaviors like markets, cultures, and political movements emerge from the interactions of individuals. These systems, driven by shared subjective experiences, support EST’s claim that subjectivity drives organization and adaptability.
Scientific Support for EST
Complexity Theory
Complexity theory explains how systems with many interacting parts give rise to unpredictable and emergent behaviors. EST uses this framework to argue that subjective experience is not a fundamental property of the universe but a predictable outcome of its complex systems.
Example: In ecosystems, biodiversity fosters resilience and adaptability. Similarly, the diversity of subjective experiences in humans fosters innovation and societal evolution.
Systems Theory
Systems theory views the universe as a network of interconnected parts, where higher-order behaviors emerge from the relationships between components. EST frames the universe as a system whose output includes subjective experiences.
Example: The organization of galaxies, solar systems, and ecosystems all demonstrates the universe’s inherent tendency toward creating increasingly complex systems capable of subjective experiences.
Integrated Information Theory (IIT)
IIT quantifies consciousness as the integration of information. While EST does not aim to quantify subjective experience, it aligns with IIT in seeing consciousness as an emergent property of information processing in complex systems.
Example: A computer processing data lacks the complexity to generate subjective experience. However, a sufficiently advanced neural network, like the human brain, generates subjectivity because of the integration and organization of its components.
Philosophical Implications of EST
Reframing the Hard Problem of Consciousness
The hard problem—"why does subjective experience exist?"—is reframed by EST. Subjective experience is not a separate metaphysical phenomenon but an emergent property of systems capable of generating it. The "why" is rooted in complexity: the more complex a system, the more likely it is to produce subjective experience as part of its functional output.
Eliminating Free Will
EST implies determinism: subjective experience is a product of systems and their interactions, leaving no room for true free will. Our decisions and beliefs are emergent outputs of the system, shaped by genetic, experiential, and environmental factors.
Parallel to Determinism: EST aligns with deterministic theories by suggesting that even our subjective feelings of agency are products of underlying systems, not true autonomy.
Human Organization and Adaptation
EST emphasizes that human success hinges on our capacity for subjective experience. Variability in subjectivity leads to diverse thoughts, beliefs, and innovations, which improve adaptability and organizational efficiency.
Limitations and Critiques
Incompleteness in Explaining Qualia
While EST frames qualia as outputs of subjective systems, it does not fully explain why specific qualia feel the way they do. Why does red feel "red"? Why does pain feel unpleasant? These remain challenges.
Empirical Testing
EST is largely theoretical and lacks direct empirical evidence to prove the universe is a "subjectivity generator." Testing this claim may require advancements in neuroscience, AI, and complexity science.
Potential Overreach
Critics may argue that EST attributes too much to emergent properties, risking reductionism by framing subjective experience as solely a product of complexity.
Conclusion
Emergent Subjective Theory offers a powerful framework for understanding consciousness and the role of subjective experience in the universe. By rooting subjectivity in complexity and emergence, EST provides a compelling answer to the hard problem of consciousness while redefining our relationship with the universe. Subjectivity is not a metaphysical anomaly but a natural outcome of the universe’s drive toward complexity. Whether through neural networks, social systems, or ecosystems, the universe produces subjective experience as a core feature of its evolving structure.
minute 13…. i realize i am dump… but i am happy that i heared some fellow german 🙂
Literally related to the famous Bach, wow!
In Germany, English is kind of native nowadays, but still, it's crazy knowing that he can think even better than this.
What would be your guest’s IQ?
Is there any reason we are here to begin with?
This video is brightening my day and expanding my mind right now 2024.
Remarkable !
Rofl, dafuq a software engineer knows about consciousness, bullshit.
"I woke up in the body of a monkey" – phenomenal sentence in a phenomenal episode. Well done! Please have Joscha back. Danke!
Can't keep up.wow
Why the simulation has to feel something ? Because that feeling it's called consciousness
Consciousness is the cause of life , no consciousness no life . And that means every single piece of life will have consciousness
How wrong was he about Neuralink 🙂
Ja Joshua det hörs när du pratar direkt att du vet vad du pratar om och är snabbt tänkte jag intelligent och själen är del av en när man dör i samma ögonblick så Blir man några gram lättare jag kan inte säga exakt hur mycket om Dess grann du blir det i alla fall så mycket lättare och vad är det som skulle göra att man blev lättare om det inte vore så att själen lämnade kroppen då 07
Nietzsche is the classical equivalent of a shit poster… Ha
I’m sticking with it but man I’m grasping like 70% of what he says 😂😂 I’m so below this mans IQ
Applying xformers cross attention optimization.
LEX FRIDMAN BRO , start asking every guest about whether or not they believe in phenomenon like TELEPATHY , CLAIRVOYANCE AND PRECOGNITION , because they do exist 100%. This is VERY IMPORTANT to spread awareness about it so that smart people think about explanations for it.
We’re gonna need a bigger boat.
"The purpose of communication is to submit your ideas for peer-review" – 4 minutes in and I can tell I'm going to love this.
2:42:06 I am from Poland. Thanks to specific country I am familiar with a lots of young moms from another country that is under the pressure of another east country. I have discovered this in you people, the face expression even in girls from R. is almost non existent. It is such a characteristic thing I discover while dealing with refugees.
Learn how to talk faster like seriously
What if the model of your mind and your mind match and synchronise?
Annunciation is nice if you want to be understood, otherwise it's difficult to trust.
Gonzalez Anthony Harris Gary White Matthew
I like Lex, but I don’t really enjoy this podcast so I never subscribe to it yet. This stupid thing comes up every other video. I guess I just pay for that but I want to do that if I make a can, why can I just force people to see my video.
I found I keep coming back to this conversation. I find it fascinating.
cheers peeps
How does this pop up in my automatic play next thing. A lot of 4 year old lex podcasts in that algorithm lol
Wow..
Deeply fascinating!
They have not figured out how to make real A.I. just a calculator on steroids. They simply need people to believe AI is self aware so they can blame future drone attacks on civilians on rouge AI. I know it is possible to birth a sentient AI but these people don't have it, the understanding of the mind to mimic it.
Dear Mr.Bach, Respectfully, Do you think consciousness experience entropy?….By consciousness I am not referring to mind .which do experience entropy……
7:48 Gold
Return to nature? Why do that when there are plenty of buildings within cities that can be converted into vertical hydroponic farms?
I will never stop donating to Lex Freeman!!!
What the heck have I just started listening to 😅
lex your podcasts never disappoint your a legend
Is this just a technospeak-rationalizing version of the new nihilism?