Johanan Raatz
EITHER minds can collapse wave-functions in the same way that unconscious measuring apparatuses can, OR substance dualism is true.
Links:
1.) The Wigner’s Friend thought experiment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wigner%27s_friend
2.) Penrose’s lecture: www.youtube.com/watch?v=f477FnTe1M0
3.) Quantum computing in photosynthesis: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=when-it-comes-to-photosynthesis-plants-perform-quantum-computation
4.) Entanglement in bird migration: http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-05/quantum-mechanics-may-help-birds-migrate-south
5.) Quantum Entanglement Holds DNA Together, Say Physicists: http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/25375/
6.) Topological qubits in microtubules: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQngptkPYE8
Source
Kermit the Frog?
Fuck these scientists, if photo synthesis is really quantum computing at room temperature why in holy fuck are they pushing that quantum computers only work at -273 degrees??????? They aren't even trying to find better materials are they ???????
How's Miss.Piggy?
Btw the apparatus acts as an extension or consciousness or awareness . If you don't look at the data recorded from the apparatus then you will never know the results lol.
People that work in machine learning and ai , usually define consciousness or being self aware as have an adaptive feed back circuit , so a circuit that can learn from previous data, like an adaptive filter, a single particle like an electron, can not learn or adapt from previous data , So I wouldn't say a single particle is conscious
non consicous apparatus don't cause the collapse thats already been prooven.
The biggest mistake of Bohr was thinking probabilities are involved. The supervising scientists will get the result he most "EXPECTS/INTENDS/HAS FAITH" to see.
If the scientist is a pessimist then the cat box might open up more times dead than alive in a 'rigged' 50/50 experiment. The 50/50 timer only serves to fill the "Quantum Projection" expectation of everyone involved in thinking of and designing these 50/50 timers along with everyone who has ever seen or heard of a timer… We expect a timer to time in a world that is much more a psychic matrix than many understand.
This is not a comment as much as it is a marker left from spirit to spirit in a method your soul can interpret. The Simulation Hypothesis is EXACTLY what the Buddhist and Hindus ahave been saying for 9000 years… This is a common dream where we are all essentially imaginary… even your past can change and does….
Oh yes… your past changes.. Think on this…
This comment will teach you real magik. This is because we are the programmers of this 'matrix'. I think this comment can offer some proofs that we can alter this matrix.
I hope it helps you understand however I will not debate this as it is essentially straight up Buddhism and I shall either convince you here or not at all.
Tues es Deus.. You are god. Magik is NOT an art, it is a philosophy that we are god. Let me try to explain how magik works. There is NO need to train or practice.. there is only a set of rules. I teach Hermetic Magik so please let me have a swing at explaining magik to anyone that would like to know.
You are entirely imaginary and we live in a 'mental' imaginary world. We are already in spirit form and our world is a creation of all our combined mental thoughts. I was raised with Masonic teachings and wrote a book on magik for my own children.
That is the 'why' of magik.. it is because the world is imaginary and we are all a part of that imagination. The proof that we are portions of god as opposed to dreams of god is that we all have influence in this consciously created world.
It is easy to prove you are imaginary. Simply walk outside and pick two fluffy white clouds. Now paint one of them sky blue with your mind. It will vanish in about ten minutes and the control cloud will remain totally intact.
This works because nobody has any notions about the solidity of a cloud. If you tried to dissolve a brick in the same fashion you would be up against the minds of everyone who has ever seen, heard of, or touched a brick.
THIS IS KEY: DO NOT invite a friend to watch you dissolve a cloud or their skepticism could pollute and or cancel your magik entirely. Skeptics affect reality also.
THIS IS NOT A JOKE: If you honestly try this you will be astounded. Then do it again and again and again. When it works every time you will still doubt…. such is the convincing nature of our reality.
So… now you have done your first magik miracle. You did this without training except just from this comment. Magik is easy for all once you understand you are imaginary… as you now should.
Ten minutes to prove you are imaginary is a great investment.
Now a key to magik is that time flows in both directions. We technically get collapsed into various historical states but that's a trickier explanation (for a comment). The author of this Wigners Friend video should understand that to Bohr.. the cat really was reverting to a historical time and was affected in the past upon opening. The Scrodinger Cat in Box was meant for Einstein and Schrodinger to ridicule Bohr.
i.e. If you already consciously create (beware the dangers) then you already can think upon your synchronizations and realize many of them were scheduled long before your affirmation/prayer.
If you are drowning in the ocean and doubt.. You will drown.. If you however knew magik or prayed to some random deity you BELIEVE will help you … then your faith can revamp history.
Suddenly! Three days ago (in the past) (In the past)(IN THE PAST!!!!!)… a cruise ship and 3000 passengers receive a weather report that causes them to alter course a few degrees and now they are perfectly in line to rescue you.
You are the supervising scientist floating in the ocean and the ship and 3000 passengers are schrodingers cat…
The delayed Choice Quantum Eraser experiment is new science that proves our history does change.
That is how prayer and magik work.
So in half a comment I taught you to do a miracle, and the second half I explained the mechanisms of it. This idea interested a retired Nobel Prize winner in the field of Quantum Mechanics.
Not bad for a comment…
Note: This is a topic I write about. I teach hermetic Magik. It is not my intention to come across as 'all knowing' or arrogant, but I am more used to teaching and would rather delete this comment than argue about what it contains.
We are already ALL Magicians. If you think your mother has moved into a bad neighborhood then that simple expectation can endanger her and cause harm to her. Every thought is a prayer, and every word is a spell.
See how someone could easily kill their own mother through untrained thinking. The thoughts we offer in prayer and affirmation are not the only thoughts 'the universe'/god perceives. EVERY THOUGHT IS IMPORTANT.
The Buddhists and Hindu have been telling us we are living in a singular high definition and perfect imagination for 9000 years. Guess they were right.
Sadly many here belong to a fear based Judeo-Christian religions which oppose magik or create bad magik. In a world where everything is a mental construct fear is the last thing we want to manifest. Even facing death with fear can lower your vibration a whole heck of a lot and could bind you to this plane.
I could go on… but this is just a comment…
Time is imaginary. We use it on a number of planes to establish an order but it is surpass able. EVERY time you meet someone again you collapse them into previous states factoring their expectation. The enormity of the timelines collapsing and revamping including mass expectation at some large rally must be staggering..
IF YOUR MOTHER THINKS YOU WILL NEVER QUIT SMOKING AND SHE BELIEVES IT… THEN THAT BELIEF CAN MAKE IT MUCH HARDER FOR YOU TO QUIT. EXPECTATION… NOT PROBABILITY…
Namaste… (means "I bow to the divine [god] in you.")
kermit the frog narrated this video while he was alive and dead at the same damn time.
I am sure you are aware now of the recent microtubial experiments that have verified predictions made by the Hameroff-Penrose theory of quantum mind
Christ is wigner's ultimate friend because he is the only one to survive the experience of quantum suicide to reach quantum immortality.
1:25
"we have free will".
Why are you stating that like it's a fact ?
0:52 – You could say identity theory would explain consciousness; but that just argues that the only thing that exists is the biological and that your experience of qualia or consciousness is mistaken. This post expands out.
I think seeing your video has furthered my belief that the reason we can't understand consciousness is because it would collapse and change configuration any time we attempted to explore its mechanics.
A reason I don't care for the Schrodinger's cat experiment, although I don't fully understand it, is because, as I originally conceived, everything affects everything. Now, in the past week, I've come across Bell's theorem. So, if atoms have free-will, then who isn't to say that the wave function of the box, the wave function of the air molecules, the wave function of the bacteria in the box, the wave function of the cat, and so on don't affect the wave function of the poison on the cat? It seems like another problematic and contradicting issue; and I've not seen someone attempt to argue about it.
And even though you say that an electronic machine could do the experiment rather than an observer, as I understand the measurement problem, the problem exists because a conscious mind eventually comes back to check the recording. Now, who is to say that the conscious observer coming back to the device is what causes the collected data to change?
This is one of the issues I currently investigating and speculating about in reference to the Benjamin Libet free-will experiments. It's as if all the molecules in the universe are colluding together, and have been colluding for a very long time, to keep us ignorant of their universe, way of life, and so on. So, my question, then, is that can we find a way (and you might think this sounds insane, but QM seems pretty insane already) to get one recording device to lie about who will have access to the recording of data, so that the original accurate data is collected rather than a disinformation account created by sneaky molecules and particles?
What if David Chalmers and the multi-verse account is right? I exist and so do you, except you exist in a different universe than me, and I only see the philosophical zombie version of you? I reason that would keep a person awake at night.
wow, "mind" blowing vid.
Roger Penrose's books, Emporer's New Mind.
He has several books, all easy reading.
Frankly, innately I do not know my next thought, do you? And, if given two thoughts or options A or B, (ie: for or against the idea of free will, or to go to restaurant A or B) I also witness having no idea which one will be chosen, and who makes the decision, where does that deciding thought come from? As consciousness/mind does not choose a or b in collapse of +/- 1/sqrt2 wavfuction., can not thought a or b be treated as an identical superposition? …just another perspective.
Is that also a possible conclusion of the quantum eraser experiment? Something like, information from the detecting instrument making or not making it into conscious observation and the diffraction pattern being dependent of such? Anyone know of any good material on that experiment? I guess I should just read the paper…
Anyone know of any good books I can read on this subject? I'm trying to understand quantum mind theory and I find it easier to understand things when arguments for them are given in volumes rather than short videos.
Yup.
"so you re actually zero dimensional"
Ie. reality is virtual…
You assume that if mental observation does not mean the same as quantum collapse, then dualism must be true. This is false, since Wigner's mind could both collapse the wave function and observe without them being equivalent. And even if it was, observation could only be a type of collapse, since there are forms of measurement, as you acknowledge in the video, that are not conscious.
I think that those who argue that freewill is an illusion has pulled the biggest Copperfield of the century-to obfuscate by some convoluted rhetoric the obvious implications of experience is what I refer to as pulling the ole' 3-card Monte! If that view were correct, our daily respnses to new stimuli would be slow or even non-existent-especially the more cerebral responses.
Remember when Krauss mocked Hameroff on his theories about quantum effects happening in biological organisms (too warm and wet?)? That was about 6-8 years ago and look who's laughing now. You gotta' love it.
Yes, and I have noted that whenever i quote an expert in whatever field I am making an argument from authority but then they pull that PR stuff on me they're good to go. Also, atheists love to also pull out the ole' argument from numbers and then add that over 90% of scientists are atheists. There's a real double standard out there. By the way, even Seth Lloyd is showing that quantum behavior is really happening in photosynthesis and migration and it seems that Hameroff was right all along.
I will try to find those if I can. But the response of that materialist was absolutely ridiculous. Finds like this do not end up in SA if they haven't been peer-reviewed anyway. (also and you might point this out to him, I've seen many supposedly "scientific minded" materialists use PR as more or less a veiled appeal to authority -still I can usually shoot them down without that)
I saw a SA article by Vladko Vedral on this topic and he suggested birds and photosynthesis and buckeyball molecules and salt crystals show QM effects but I was contested by this materialist debunker who said that was a popular article even if it was in SA and doesn't count as evidence and demanded I point him to authentic PR papers. If you have that, please direct me to that. I want to get around that accusation if possible to lend weight to this topic in my book. I would appreciate your help.
Johanan, is this in the theoretical stage with no real solid studies or peer-reviewed papers? Do you have any papers showing empirically that QM effects actually occur in DNA? I have been following Hameroff/Penrose for some time and have always believed they were on to something. If proof is available I'd love to have that for my book.
Yes,that thought occurred to me as well even if I know squat about this material.I wish I knew more.But then even that seems more an account for increasing mechanical/chemical complexity and still leaves me gaping on the topic of subjective states.I don't know if you followed the NDE of Eben Alexander but he claims when he was removed from his body and encountered "God" at the heart of the "core" it was cler to him that no matter how complex our science, these things will remain out of our range
Maybe, unless perhaps intrinsic qualia are encoded in the wave-function. You know, Heisenberg's Platonist understanding of QM.
Johanan,
If self awareness or even the qualia perception of green is a wave collapse (a self-wave collapse) doesn't the hard problem still remain a mystery? To say a collapse accounts for the perception of green is no less obfuse than saying neurlogical impulses can account for qualia. It's one mechanism traded for another which by their nature cannot account for subjective states by rendering a real analog that makes sense in a reductionist fashion.
4 people think (ironically) they they are zombies…..
This video is gold.
How do we not have free will?
This experiment actually points to the fact that we do.
regards
Yes, but that would make it a mind because it's self-observing.
"the eye stands for the sensory or cognitive aspect of reality… while the eye’s perceptual target represents the informational aspect… By virtue of these complementary aspects, it seems that the universe can… be described as “conscious” and “introspective”…perhaps even “infocognitive”." ~Chris Langan
(he suggests perhaps not in a mental sense, but it would be mental once you realize the implications of protophenomenality)
"can only be a mind"
So the idea is to break down matter and mind in terms of a protomental phenomenon such that we can unify them. Collapse is that protomental phenomenon. It's the same for both conscious and non-conscious observations. So that's our "bridge." From there we can deduce self-awareness as self-collapse from our bridge of "collapse = (protophenomenal) observation."
"…in the same sort of way?"
Well it could be, as part of a larger system of collapses bent back on itself.
Keep up the great work Johanan!
Isn't it simply a non-answer until you know what is actually under the box?
If I give you a question with 2 possible answers, you have 50% chance of getting it right should you answer it but you could also just not answer…
Yes it becomes impossible to notice after too many particles are entangled (for the same reason chaotic systems are unpredictable). That's not the same as no entanglement though.
If we add one nm to one nm 10^33 times how long will our series of nanometers be?
Classical space-time takes over past the QM scale, but only as limit of entanglement: blogs.scientificamerican(dot)com/guest-blog/2011/12/05/new-theory-explains-how-objective-reality-emerges-from-the-strange-underlying-quantum-world/