Karl Friston on the Perils of Investigating Consciousness, Derealization & the Free Energy Principle

30 thoughts on “Karl Friston on the Perils of Investigating Consciousness, Derealization & the Free Energy Principle”

1. Note that there will be Part 3 of this conversation, with questions from Michael Levin, Norman Wildberger, and others posed to Karl. If you have questions for Karl, then do leave them below as a separate comment.

2. Thank you and Much Love from the Philippines! Happy New Year Kurt!

3. Okay, I need a nutshell in a nutshell, in a nutshell……
   brain hurts.
   I'll keep listening, but I hope your existential issues are at least under control? I have had a couple of times in my life, where I had to let go of my conceits, one of which had to do with energy, specifically oil. The book that did that was "The long emergency" by James Howard Kunstler. Basically, it destroyed my belief that humanity would eventually, without doubt, become the master of time and space. Our place here, and our civilization are more precarious than I had ever thought. Sorry if that adds to the pile of stuff on your head. Anyway, I really enjoy your open mindedness, and the topics covered and the guests you have on really make this channel worthwhile.
   Robert.

4. This video is so important and almost no one talks about how to approach higher consciousness carefully and safely and when to take it slow. Really great advice, this video has to be the first thing any guru should send you beforehand. Thank you!

5. So if something with a Markov blanket system exists over time, it must resist entropy by gathering evidence of its own existence, minimising free energy or surprise, via a change in its modelling or actions. The first line of thinking makes sense, if something exists over time and is consistently able to resist entropy, it must have a strategy to do so whether consciously or not.
   
   Whether that strategy is gathering evidence of its own existence, I'm not sure.

   For example, I'm not trying to confirm my own existence by any means, I'm looking to understand it, even if understanding it moves me towards an increasing accumulation of evidence that disproves my existence. I'm not actively seeking the blue pill if you will, I seek the red as it moves me closer to the truth. This may be my strategy for resisting entropy, by better modelling the world, others and my self, but the aim isn't reduction of uncertainty, it's growth. Growth in consciousness. Growth in level of awareness of being, in relation to understanding of self, other (people/species) and whole (nature/universe/God).

   Perhaps this reduces down to a systems ability to process information at the various Markov blankets in which it exists. Or awareness of that within its blanket, outside its blanket & the interface between the two. The quantity and quality of its data set, the ability to process, model & synthesise that information, then translate those learnings in to revisions of its modelling or actions, in a real time continuous learning loop.

   Minimising uncertainty might be a key survival strategy, but is mere survival the highest motivating force in the universe?

6. 1:40:31 I have more nightmars at 20 years old than i did when I was a kid

7. kurt – do i spell your name right – ? – you are doing great <3

8. 1:24:00 the thing is that its not that the self does not exist , or the ego does not exist, its a misinterpretation of the term illusion, illusions are very real in a sense that you have perception of them, the thing that the easterners mean when they say the ego is an illusion is not that you should loose it or get rid of it , but to stop clinging to it as it were the "real thing" as in thing in it self. The ego in that sense is useful or even necessary , for the godhead could not go to sleep and see his actions if he remembered his true nature.

9. Isn't there an important difference between a mathematical model, tested statistically against quantified data, and a mental "model" a non-mathematician holds of the world, an unconscious hypothesis (what we don't know that we know) that can be very resistant to variations in data? Wasn't psychoanalysis supposed to foster a process leading the analysand to gaining an awareness of his/her unconscious models or hypotheses?

10. @31:35 That a cell is limited to sensory information in its local environment (cell wall) is questioned in the chapter The Science of Life in Iain McGilchrist's The Matter With Things. Cells show an awareness of the organism of which they are a part, though no theory can yet explain this. That is to say, the barrier (Markov blanket?) between the inside and outside of a cell is not defined by the cell wall, as if a cell's mind, as it were, extends beyond the cell wall.

11. Curt you are a deep thinker but you freely admit that your intense absorption into a combination of competing thoughts sometimes plays tricks on your mind. Perhaps there's a computer analogy here: you don't have infinite RAM, & maybe often have too many thought applications running at the same, when perhaps you are more likely to experience system overload. Normal management would be to close down a few applications, or even a full shutdown to restart later. If you recognise that you sometimes overdo the intensity (ie mental stress) then it might be worth considering allocating specific refresh periods of unwinding downtime before you restart/reboot. (Time management)
    Just my thoughts, & I apologise if I (unintentionally) appear patronising

12. I found that quite a few people, myself included, experienced she personalization and derealization as a result of having been poisoned by our environment. For me it was black mold, for others it's heavy metals or exposure to industrial chemicals. It's fascinating that there can be nonsense of identical symptoms. In my experience is in other people I know, recovery is indeed possible, and not an eternal struggle.
    Here's to your health!

13. Curt, as a spiritual person I have experienced three times in my life, I am 60 now; hearing an auditable voice. Not only I but had someone with me at the time and they heard it as well.
    The ability to experience this should encourage you. Maybe God is just trying to bring you into a higher state of consciousness? There is a spiritual realm all around us, we are spiritual beings. May blessings and kindness follow you my friend.

14. Kurt the latter part of your discussion with respect to dissociative states (which personally as a survivor of complex PTSD) I know quite well cannot just be mediated by CBT or some variation thereof. As we are really addressing without getting into it here, matters at a subcortical limbic-autonomic level. In other words, what proves to be helpful cannot be sustained simply over time by better or more productive salubrious acceptance/ruminations about it (i.e., CBT) but about access at a deeper brain-somatic level.

    Essentially, from an autonomic nervous system perspective, "Do I feel internally (interoceptively) safe with others and my surrounding or is my sympathetic-adrenal system adaptively mobilized for fight/flight defensive behaviors or parasympathetic withdrawal/shutdown and/or dissociation." We are too hard on ourselves. Please read Dr. Stephen Porges, Polyvagal Theory.(youtube many wonderful interviews/presentations). He is the leading expert on the autonomic nervous system.

    Basically, it has transformed in the last 20+ years all of trauma based psychotherapy, neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, attachment/regulation theory with respect to basically understanding that all autonomic states are Adaptive and emergent behaviors of our 200 million year mammalian evolution and the necessity not to eliminate real/perceived danger just cognitively, which is too often falsely equated with a sense of safety but rather cultivating underlying feelings of safety in regulatory/co-regulatory engagement with another at a implicit-procedural level (i.e., beneath the words) which is NOT simply a cognitive deployment of techniques (A.C.T or otherwise). You should consider having him on.

15. Get a complete neurological evaluation Curt, nothing to lose ✌🏼

16. What an amazing amount of information from Mr Friston. And delivered in such a humble fashion. Phew!!!!

17. What a thoroughly enjoyable conversation. So funny and personal at times.

18. Professor Friston’s analysis of your deep experience making sense of the world, is done in such an eloquent way that it proves just how brilliant he is. What an amazing conversation.

19. Beautiful ideas.

20. Curt something similar happened me also. Which started with a bad trip (although I have been on a inward journey for the last 2 years previous so existential questions were already in my thoughts) and lead to anxiety, panic attacks and some quite terrifying thoughts. I had never felt so separate not only from everyone but myself if myself was even a thing.

    Using the tools of Buddhism was a good help for me that these thoughts of impermanence or the absurdity of experience are acceptable. Eventually, I have reached the point where I feel more connected to whatever this is/I am and the most freeing part was a moment I had where it was clear to me that I and all of us in this existence should not fear or feel separate from the void because I, me, you, everything and the void are one.

    Since that realisation, I don't get lost in the spiral of terror and confusion anymore I get blissful, warming and embracing feeling. Fear and confusion are no longer a thing because I am exactly where I should be. Doing what I should be doing in the larger system of what we and everything all are. While not having the answer to the questions that stirred me I instead fully accept it for whatever it is. And that worked for me.

    Curt I really admire how you opened up here about yourself. Thanks for what you do.

21. It is true many are not ready to take the narrow path but those who are burdened with intellect of the self can be molded by the stilling of one’s soul and emotions. It appears as if from the outside that you may not of been ready to let go but have been forcefully awakened. I have noticed in some of your videos you have been shining a light in the darkness with some guests as if to see if they are aware of the “I am”.

22. Man I really found it hard to follow along with Karl, zero dumbing it down so everyone could follow along, zero explaning the terms he was using and their meanings. Very poor speaker to much pausing befor even compleating a sentince very broken speaker. IMO Very inteligent but lacks speaking clearly.

23. wow in the beginning where he talks about life affirming truth this is exactly the definition of truth that peterson talks about especially in his viktor frankl lecture !!!!!!!!

24. All investigation into consciousness needs a container so you don’t go off the rails. And actually, for me personally, Mahayana buddhism really helps one navigates the extremes of nihilism and eternalism and the constant see sawing between those two in navigating this paradoxical world. There is relative truth and there is ultimate truth and the path is the middle way. Also, just because something is a relative truth doesn’t mean that it is unimportant because the relative/tangible/real/sensory truth is the vessel in which we approach the ultimate.

    Eastern philosophies begin with the assumption of nonduality and you could say that the rituals, stories etc one grows up with creates a knack for an intuitive understanding of what that means. The methods and practices themselves also buttresses the seeker from falling into emotional abysses of the constant pendulum swing between material and non material. Unfortunately, concepts that originate in that philosophy is being adopted en masse by people who come from a defaultly dualistic perspective and this is where the problems begin as this swing between the two will be even more dramatic and difficult to reconcile.

    The paradox of reality is fundamental to keep in mind when encountering experiences of emptiness, derealization etc. This is why any eastern master worth their salt will tell you that you cannot cherry pick elements in spiritual paths that suit your point of view and discard the rest as nonsense as this kind of cherry picking can make a person easily fall into wrong views or depressive states.

    I had an experience in a vipassana retreat where literally the world appeared like a hologram and I lost all ability to name or label objects. Without the advice of the monk reminding me not to grasp onto phenomena, I would have ruminated my way to insanity.

    Traditional spiritual vessels are not out of date, useless or old fashioned. Their very existence is a method or wisdom. If you want a guru, stay away from self help books and go to a temple and do the seemingly inane things like bow to a statue or light incense. It might seem stupid like how I felt in the beginning but its purpose and importance will eventually be revealed to you.

25. I have panic disorder and if I’m having a hard time and get startled or shaken emotionally, I start to “slip away”. That’s just what it feels like. At first, it was so scary because you feel like you’re never going to be the same again and it sends you reeling. Scrambling to grasp to anything that seems “solid/real”, but that just makes it worse.
    I took the time to learn about it and talk to my therapist and we figured out it’s derealization episodes. In essence, it’s my brain forcing me to take a time out from stress. My brain is protecting me and working normally. Once I realized it’s not necessarily a negative experience, my episodes are shorter and lean towards the positive. I’m just quieter and try to enjoy textures and sounds and just go with it. 💜

26. When I was a pretty little kid (2nd grade) I had what many would refer to as an existential crisis. Being that I was so young, my parents wrote it off as just being scared at night based on the fact that most of my deep thinking occurred while laying in bed each night. The feelings of dread and doom that accompanied my pondering ultimately gave way to intense derealization and dissociation. The destabilizing nature of grappling with the concept of death, consciousness, and infinity left me predisposed to relapsing into a dissociative state whenever I encountered significant degrees of stress.

    I can unequivocally say that I desperately needed spiritual guidance from a very early age, and the lack of such guidance gave way to many maladaptive dissociative defense mechanisms that have endured to this day.

    I completely agree with Kurt when he says that this is the most important interview to watch. It helps create a foundational framework that lends itself as guide-rails so that it’s less likely you’ll wind up in a mindset that feels like you are free falling into an infinitely deep abyss.

    Thanks Kurt ❤️

27. Thank you for talkling about your feelings, thoughts and worries, i can definetly relate to your situation and hearing you talk about it gave me good advice and solace.

28. Curt, I jumped to the end of the video to the section of you describing your experiences of 'existential crisis' do I exist, is this a dream, what is real… and you yourself realising and Karl confirming, that by discussing the experience with others rather than it circulating in your mind.. gives the ability to question the hypothesis and help bring one back into a sensory experience of reality. Watching and listening to what you went through… makes me realise the IMPACT of rarely talking about my experiences to others had on my life… and I wonder how I've survived until now… how trauma pushed me into places most should not tread… there is SO MUCH I could communicate… but WHO would understand what I experienced… I can see now that there ARE A FEW people who would… I've considered writing a play… to perform… to others… to help… to express myself… I've been too scared to tell others… for fear of being misunderstood… or thought as crazy… or…. but MAYBE communicating… telling my story.. would be a healing life affirming experience…

29. Smoke a pipe and don't worry about all the thoughts you having that you don't need to because let's face it our mind spends hours worrying and go backwards in to things that have happened and into the future thinking about what may or might not happen. I don't see how realising the ego and internal conversation can be quite limiting and destructive repeating thought patterns..not sure a cup of tea or cigarette is useful in much real sense. Chew a pencil.

30. Ok, so you introduce this principle as something like the principle of least action and give an example of a ball. For a ball we can construct a langrangian, differentiate it, write down diff equations and get concrete equations of motion.
    Is this possible with this principle of free energy? You give an exaple of a bacteria, can we model the actual behavior of bacteria and get concrete numerical results and maybe simulate it on a computer? Are there any good examples of actually using this thing?

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