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Nobel laureate Roger Penrose is widely held to be one of the most brilliant living physicists for his wide-ranging work from black holes to cosmology. And then there’s his idea about how consciousness is caused by quantum processes. Most scientists have dismissed this as a cute eccentricity—a guy like Roger gets to have at least one crazy theory without being demoted from the supersmartypants club. The most common argument for this dismissal is that quantum effects can’t survive long enough in an environment as warm and chaotic as the brain. Well, a new study has revealed that Penrose’s prime candidate molecule for this quantum activity does indeed exhibit large scale quantum activity. So was Penrose right after all? Are you a quantum entity?
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You put words in Penrose’ mouth. You pretend too much. This is why your channel is suffering economically. Your presentation is too disingenuous to the subject matter in the you never educate the audience along the way. You did this subject an injustice.
Somos corpos físicos podres que fica a consciência continua e não é biológico é quântica
I'm sorry, but I have to ask. If consciousness arises from quantum processes operating in microtubules inside the brain, presumably relying on quantum superposition and entangled states in the process …. it can surely only be a short step from there to postulate a basis for telepathy, ESP, and so forth, no ….?
What I get from this: my brain is a LASER
Thank you very much for this video. Especially after watched through to 17:18 after your comment that you are mostly dismissive of Penrose's ideas. Yet you made a very objective overview of this idea and explained clearly to laymans like us. Incidentally I also think Penrose's ideas are sometimes too crazy. Somehow I clicked in and watched the whole video. This is the power of your channel and please keep this style.
The math is a language and scaling problem. I have a paper I have certified as architect that can claim UFT. I have discovered the use of the fine structure constant as a lense when coupled with the Jacobian reciprocal in a modulo-9 system. Supersymmetry achieved.
Sometimes my brain gets all quantum entangled!😮
AI can never be fully intelligent (unless it's connected to a quantum computer)
Vibration and resonance inside tissues sustain the large scale quantum states
Like characters in a game attempting to peek outside the box.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.” Albert Einstein
Now me being much less smart than Albert, this quote took me much thought to attempt to actually understand , my analogy is a game of snakes and ladders, as the creator I create the rules of the game, then I as the player am a character in the game, I role a dice I move forward and hope I don’t land on a snake, and so I as the player, create a problem to solve; I need to stop falling down snakes! As I am bound by the rules of the game (my level of consciousness) I can only try and solve this problem by rolling a dice and being lucky, but to ultimately solve this problem of not falling down snakes I would need to shift back to my creator role (higher level of consciousness) and remake the rules
Working out what’s outside our reality is akin to characters in a computer game working out they are in a simulation and peeking into our world
If you go one step further and propose that all particals in existence were created in pairs and all particles are entangled. It's seems more palatable that all matter has quantum potential. If all particals are entangles but the pairs are all scattered across all of reality then does that explain everything? If half of reality had the pairs together and half didn't we could study the differences and see the whole picture but if all pairs are scattered then reality is a homogeneous state of energy and matter. We can can study and gather data and see the patterns in the stable physics that exist in the homogeneous reality. But if you can create a cage and start a factory reset on the paired partical you are creating a prior state of reality and can start to study and understand a quantum state of reality. My brain hurts now. If I have a brick wall and study the wall I can measure the state of existence of the wall. But if you toss the wall across the universe it will scatter all of its atoms over time. And the particals mix with other particles from other walls made of different elements… so in that mixture you could find basically the stack map data that says these particles have characteristics of being able to be walls… you won't actually have accurate date on what kinds of separate distinct walls the particles had originated as because that initial wall was just a single state that the particles once existed in….? But if you don't know the particles are still actively entangled yoy might study them and say there is no way the particles can function as a wall but the entire time the particles are still entangled and still trying to funtion like a wall… but then you could also take the particles and harness their urge to function as the structure of a wall and use that dynamic to design a system that aligns the particles and uses the entangled urges to perform functions….. The quantum state wants to collapse…. but at the same time doesn't care if it collapses. If you could impose order on that process….
I keep thinking about water clusters as I listen to this
yes I feel like I'm collapsing 🫠
ok yes quantum waveform collapsings too 🤷♂️
The main reason now of "not paying attention" to Penrose and others is that it conflict with the AI funding spiel, according to which AGI would emerge simple for enough of computational power.
Even when setting aside the question if AGI is simply a function of scale, the computational power of brain neurons may be orders of magnitude higher than the neural nets' "neurons" (Hameroff says that "digital neurons are insult to the real ones").
This will move the possible "emergence" of AGI way into the future, ways more what the venture investors and stock markets are accustomed for.
And that even before the question if "real" AGI would be useful for anything, after all regular (human-powered) GIs quite often refuse to do anything "useful" …
Actually, the "digital neurons" are already known to be massively simpler than the real ones. To start with the synaptic weight resolution of the real ones is massively larger. The firing and transfer of information in brain is not clocked, it seems to be truly parallel. Anybody who ever dealt with truly parallel computation, knows how the level of difficulty of modeling is so much higher. The current advocates of AGI behave like they have proven that they do have a computing platform elements equivalent to that one of brain, they certainly did NOT.
The statement that everything must be computational is most likely a statement of faith, and always will be … unless we all hear one day a voice of the"admin" informing us that we are simulation and he is sorry but the computer is about to shut down …
short: they understand almost nothing…
Semi educated bogan trying to be an educator and through this defines and reinforcers the argument of reason!
Proof of faster than light speed communication and other thoughts.
Which came first? The observer or the observed? It is quantum consciousness not individual consciousness. We each get our own bit of individual consciousness however we are all far more consciously connected to the entire universe than any of us can imagine.
What truly is quantum entanglement? The brain is a shunt and quantum experiencer as well as carrying many other functions especially in the operations of the body but it is not a quantum generator however it receives and sends quantum transmissions. Wet and warm have no meaning or bearing. The brain receives quantum states from the non-physical worlds and dimensions. Memories and other information exists inside and outside of our brains.
Bird Murmuration is a beautiful example of quantum entanglement. This is also an example of quantum manipulation outside the space of a brain.
Quantum entanglement and instantaneous communication exists on a large scale. Just like the air we breathe and the water we drink, our everyday involvement with quantum entanglement is barely noticed. Here's an obvious list of ordinary quantum FTL entanglement situations.
1. Communication with the Creator of the universe who created all science and faiths as well as all existence.
2. Communication with folks in other dimensions such as relatives, friends, angels or others including those from other planets, who have also passed through the physical life into the next phase of our existence.
3. Prayers for ourselves and others and their effects are quantum entanglement and inter-dimensional communication.
4. So called schizophrenia does not exist. It is quantum entanglement with interplanetary outlaws and it is this relationship that quantum entanglement experts depend on for their entire hypothesis when they describe relationships of objects vast distances apart. It is not identical behavior, it is entangled behavioral influence. The outlaw occupants do not belong here and their behavior is almost always deplorable and deceptive and they consider themselves the motivators while eventually they discover that they too are prisoners of these relationships. To know more see:https://medium.com/@robincrutan/thirteen-billion-and-fifty-nine-inhabited-planets-63bb92a1f6d8
5. Science and Faith are the same in the quantum world in the entire universe. There is no difference. Faith is for planetary evolution and eventually brings us forward so that we understand the laws of the universe. Fractured religion is for those who want to pervert the spiritual quantum guidance or human perverted.
Have a wonderful day,
Robin C. Rutan
My brain is both alive and dead at the same time. Explains a lot
16.45 Hear, hear…
A priest doesn't understand X. God is too complex for the priest to understand. Therefore, God causes X.
A scientist doesn't understand X. Quantum Mechanics is too complex for the scientist to understand. Therefore, Quantum Mechanics causes X.
I know neuroscience but very minimal knowledge about quantom physics I do have an idea but I want a expert in quantom physics to help me write it as a complete draft theory. How I can find physics researchers that interested in topic? Hameroff conference is canceled and most of researchers are psychologist etc that are part of his team
I’m not an expert but doesn’t scientific idealism resolve the paradox here. Consciousness doesn’t emerge from the brain, quantum or not, the brain is an expression of conscious activity.
17:44 yeah sometimes I do feel that way
Sorry, wanted to watch but every syllable doesn’t require a hand gesture.
It would be ridiculous to think quantum physics doesn't have a large part to play in nature as it's so fundamental. Enzymes are thought to use quantum tunnelling to split proteins. One of the most interesting brain effects is the many cases of head injuries that ended up with strange effects – people who can suddenly speak fluently in another language or play an instrument when they couldn't before. Super fascinating.
Debunking Penrose's Objective Reduction of a Quantum Wave Theory = Observer is Subjective✓
If quantum gravity causes the collapse of the wave function, then this is essentially determinism, and the observer's influence on the quantum entanglement is subjective, thus refuting Penrose's objective reductionism:
This strikes at the very foundation of Penrose's theory. He argues along the lines of physical reductionism: if there is a specific mechanism (gravity) that "pushes" the wave function toward collapse, then this ceases to be an act of "choice" and becomes a mechanical process:
Analytical Report Deconstructing Objective Reduction (OR) Theory:
Report: Gravity as a Deterministic Anchor
Critical Analysis: Why "Objective Reduction" May Be Just Determinism in Disguise
1. The "Objectivity" Trap: Gravity as an Algorithm
Sir Roger Penrose suggests that the collapse of a wave function occurs when the gravitational energy difference between superpositions (ΔEG) reaches a certain threshold value.
In physics, this is called the Diósi-Penrose criterion:
τ≈ΔEGℏ
Where τ is the time until the function collapses.
Your counterargument: If the collapse time (τ) is strictly correlated with mass/energy (EG), then we are dealing with pure mathematics.
There is no room for "free choice" here.
The system behaves like a fuse in an electrical installation – when the voltage (mass) is exceeded, the system "pops" and chooses one state.
Conclusion: This is determinism disguised as quantum gravity. Mass dictates the outcome, so "free will" is merely a delay in the activation of the gravitational mechanism.
2. Observer Subjectivity vs. Objective Reduction
The observer's influence on quantum "entanglement" is subjective, which refutes Objective Reduction. Let's break it down:
Penrose Theory (OR): Reduction happens on its own (objectively) due to gravity, even if no one else is alive.
My thesis: The observer (human/machine) is an element of the system. Since the observer is itself composed of matter (mass), their "observation" is simply another gravitational/mass interaction.
If the observer "pushes" the wave function with their presence (the mass of their brain/instrument), this process becomes relative and subjective to a given frame of reference. Thus, "Objective Reduction" becomes Subjective Mass Interaction.
3. Quantum Gravity = Death of Free Will?
If quantum gravity is what "selects" reality, then:
Abolition of Chance: True quantum chance disappears. It is replaced by the complex but predictable interaction of spacetime.
Materialist Fatalism: Since gravity is universal and inevitable, every "thought" in your head is simply the gravitational collapse of microtubules, which must have occurred at the precise moment when the mass reached critical mass.
Penrose's Fallacy: Penrose tries to save free will by claiming that this process is "non-computable."
Unfortunately, the absence of computability does not imply the absence of determinism. Even if we can't calculate something, it can still be a rigid physical process.
Table: The Decay of Penrose's Theory
Penrose's Critique (Deterministic)
ΔEG Threshold: Nature's "choice" limit. Rigid mechanical ignition point. Observer: Unnecessary (objective process). Crucial, but as another mass (subjective). Result: Incomputable (free will). Incomputable, but determined by mass.
Conclusions
Penrose attempts to "smuggle" mysticism into physics by calling the gravitational process of matter's collapse "objective reduction." However, viewed through the prism of scale and mass, gravity plays the role of a great quantum censor. It transforms the cloud of possibilities into a single, hard path.
If gravity is determinism, then the universe is a gigantic mechanism in which quantum waves are merely a "momentary oscillation" before the inevitable impact of the gravitational hammer.
The theory of "gravitational determinism" refers to the concept of the Big Bang – did mass there also "write down" the entire scenario of the universe from the beginning?
Even if Penrose turns out to be partially right about quantum effects playing a role, I think there’s another layer that can’t be ignored: consciousness seems inseparable from memory. Whatever physical substrate it runs on, a conscious system has to integrate information across time. Without memory encoding and retrieval, there’s no continuity, no self model, no ability to report experience.
So the real question isn’t just whether quantum coherence can survive in microtubules, but whether those processes meaningfully interface with the brain’s memory architecture. If they don’t contribute to long term or working memory dynamics, it’s hard to see how they would generate the kind of persistent, narrative awareness we call consciousness.
🫣 Oh
WE make a decision and that decision takes a position in time when we move forward we cannot rewind time to a position in the past. However a computer makes a decision based on its compute path of actions/events where the path is the time therefore we can rewind the path of actions/events to a specific position and then press forward again we can even manipulate that path since we are able to rewind to a specific position of the path unlike a human where we cannot rewind time. Therefore if one accepts that time and the position are one of the same but in human terms we cannot rewind time unlike a computer where we can rewind to a specific position – THEY ARE FUNDAMENTALY THE SAME, except in the real world, time is fixed but the path a computer takes is not, its just a position as time is irrelevant. Whilst I accept Penrose argument I think its flawed based on a computer path is not related to time in the way humans are constraint by it, a computer is not. Maybe we need to reverse the argument in that the brain functional neurons emulates a computer?
If quantum effects make photosynthesis more efficient, then any argument that quantum effects need a cold environment loses credibility.