Essentia Foundation
Michael Pollan is one of the world’s most influential science writers, known for his authoritative journalistic investigations into food, plants, and psychedelics. In his latest book, “A World Appears: A Journey Into Consciousness,” he turns to the nature of consciousness by rigorously exploring the leading scientific theories in the field.
In this interview, Pollan reflects on why he has come to doubt that materialism can fully account for consciousness, calling it “unproven or wrong,” and why he describes consciousness as “a labyrinth from which there is no exit.”
A World Appears, A Journey Into Consciousness: https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/443044/a-world-appears-by-pollan-michael/9780241509470
Een Wereld Verschijnt, Op Reis Door Het Bewustzijn: https://singeluitgeverijen.nl/de-arbeiderspers/boek/een-wereld-verschijnt/
More information on Michael Pollan’s work: https://michaelpollan.com/
Great thanks to The Embassy Of The Free Mind for the beautiful recording location and personal tour: https://embassyofthefreemind.com/
Chapter marks:
0:00 Introduction
3:50 Pollan’s metaphysical journey
7:30 What is sentience?
9:20 Plant consciousness
9:59 Pollan on Karl Friston’s free energy principle
11:08 Movement and the ability to feel pain
13:34 Talking to plants as epistemology
15:42 Michael Levin and bioelectricity
20:07 Transmissive theories of consciousness
23:30 Metzinger’s critique on Francis Crick
26:47 Politics and gender in consciousness research
30:55 Alison Gopnik and “Professor Consciousness”
32:46 The dream of conscious AI
36:02 The metaphysical landscape
42:13 Michael Pollan as a tragic comic figure…
43:22 Russell Hurlburt and inner experience
48:56 The end of Pollan’s journey
55:08 The gift of consciousness
57:15 Is there a war on consciousness?
59:02 Critique of computational functionalism
© 2026 Essentia Foundation. All rights on interview content reserved.
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Maybe one day Michael will get to the point where he realize that nothing is ever “squandered,” that it’s not possible to waste time and the nothing is a mistake.
The idea that Decartes proposed, that mind and body were “separate”, was based on the “individibility” of the mind versus the ability to manipulate and “dissect” physical substances or objects. Thus consciousness cannot be “grasped”, it may comprise isolated thoughts, but they cannot be “caught” – they may be influenced, but not truly controlled; their essence is their spontaneity. However, his simple declaration “I think, therefore I am” is in fact a deep insight into the nature of consciousness perhaps not completely appreciated. How do we know we exist? We think about what we just experienced – e.g. I ask “myself” if I exist. That requires self-reflection. I don’t think consciousness can occur without self-reflection. It it observing our experience of our experience, which requires memory, to enable consciousness. That constitutes a process, which is not divisible or manipuatable, because to interrupt that process destroys it. The conclusion one might draw is that consciousness is indeed distinct from the material body. However, modern physics has shown us that matter itself is ultimately just stable patterns of energy, whereas the thought “I am …” is a more complex pattern of energy produced by our brain that we experience. Thus while there are considerable distnctions to be made between our “thoughts” and the brain that generates them, both are fundamentally fluctuations of energy but on different scales of complexity.
When one opens ones eyes what happens? We see the outside environment. The "seeing" consists of light hitting the nerves in ones eyes and then that constructs a view of the environment somewhere in the brain. What ends up happening is, a reconstruction of the environment that is amenable to our senses, inside our body. When a conscious entity senses the state of mind that, we call consciousness, its roots are found in or defined by “feeling like something”. We can identify that “something” as being the reproduction of one's environment which reproduction is, inside our brain as, a representation of that environment. By being reproduced inside our body, in particular, somewhere inside the brain then, that very reproduction of the environment, is who or what, is doing or experiencing that "feeling like something".
We, as the conscious entity, by sensing the reproduction of our environment are also, the reproduction of our environment. That process then, directly answers that hard problem of, who, exactly, is feeling that sensation of consciousness or, the reproduction of the environment. Since we, as the conscious agent, are the reproduction of the environment then, we as that reproduction are also, the entity that is also doing the feeling. Based on the above then, who is conscious is, it is the reproduction of the environment. Added to this answer to the hard problem is, the fact that, due to the reproduction containing all of the properties of that outside environment that we are sensitive to then, the outside environment also has that particular property that exists in the reproduced version of the environment that, of consciousness. This conclusion is upheld by, those who have taken a psychedelic, to notice that their environment appears to be conscious.
So by this above indirect route, the environment, in which a conscious entity exists has the property of consciousness itself. If it is true that, consciousness is a property of the environment then, our personal consciousness continues, after we cease to exist in terms of our physical body.
From my experience the truth comes to us when all seeking and all analysis is dropped or when the divine reveals it to us.
The analytical mind cannot grasp a non dual reality, in fact only piles more creatrix of mind upon creatrix of mind… therefore to 'experience' the non-dual oneness of being the analytical mind with all its grasping and tendencies to write current theories and rough findings in books will never truly arrive at what 'actually' is.
What actually is, is experienced when all illusions of mind are quietened/dropped, granted it's not an easy thing for most people to do because the mind is almost ever busy…but moments of the great oneness can be experienced before death in this lifetime.
I have been most fortunate to have had these moments on both on the astral plane and in quiet little moments most unexpectedly…like one day when I was in my local park, sitting with my eyes shut appreciating a cool breeze against my skin on a lovely still summer day, in that moment a huge wave of peace came through me, I suddenly smelled roses despite roses being nowhere near me, I stood up and started walking across the grass and I suddenly 'knew' I was no different from every blade of grass I walked upon, or tree, or anything else. It was a minute of complete unity, the truth of my being without illusion.
You only think that men consider the problem more. We give birth. Its a part of our reality – but no, you wouldn't be conscious of what we know, or are conscious of.
Consciousness is not found in matter, consciousness experiences in souls will manifest matter. Nor is it found in the 🧠 we are the seer, the witness, the liberated without psychedelics. I’m 40 year trauma nurse and medical professional. Awakening to your true atma, is the goal and learn we are not separate, we are love and must learn unconditional love, that’s all that exist. I am
My plants respond to my reiki they take on my heart beat and lean towards me. Plants is conscious, I believe, animals do similar tell tale signs responding to reiki
Now that Pollan can make some $ from it because of researched trends….he is on it.😅
I started dream traveling at eight and with the use of psychedelics during my late teenage early college years psilocybin some designer ones made in a college down in Florida it helped me to expand my consciousness and now at the age of 60 I regularly dream travel leave my body into another body in a different dimension
Astrology must have a connection..
Michael Polin is low key annoying but I forgive him because he's from Connecticut..
It 's about frequencies of conciousness, as to' levels' of conciousnes. As to degrees, poorly described, of awareness
Excellent guest! Michael Pollan is a fascinating dude. 💜
We have the tools. We're just choosing not to use them. We all have the ability to connect into the steady stream of consciousness that God, our Creator, Father, provides. Just as in science, specifically, it starts with a belief and then going after the evidence, with God.
This life is no gift.
My mom taught that everything and everyone is sentient… everything and everyone is a thread and god is the cloth we weave as we come together
If we take "running away" as good evidence that an entity experiecnes pain, what do you say about plants that grow away from shade and toward sun? It's not so easy to knock down the plain fact that plants respond to their environment, not just in acquiring rewards but in avoiding negative rewards/pain.
Ah., Ha….
The so-called western civilization always neglects the contribution of other civilizations. Why?
I don’t care for Pollan. At all. He’s definitely not it.
Very interesting conversation, but I kept thinking, but how about taking into account the Tibetan Buddhist ontological teaching that a human being is a temporary coming together of the five Aggregates or skandhas: Form (Body), Feeling, Perception, Mental Formations, and Consciousness. A plant is form. It is not sentient according to Buddhist mind science. A being must have a mind stream to be considered sentient… On the other hand, in pure non-dualism, all is One,. So many of the roads western science is inching along have already been transcended by eastern ‘ mystic’ traditions… still, it’s good to see that all these questions are being asked!
The interviewer gets close imho at the end, when he brings up quantum physics. The answer to the Hard Question will come when the circles of knowledge (graphically) representing both quantum physics and neuroscience grow so much they overlap, and in the overlap we will know what consciousness is. Thank you for a great interview.
PS Michael, I’ve been going to a Buddhist monastery weekly to study and practice mindfulness and meditation for 3 months. In the first minutes of the first class of the last session, the shifu said (asked rhetorically), why were we given these minds we can’t control? I’ve thought of that every day since :). Maybe your next book should be research into the expert meditators. This notion you share that they can experience a state similar to a psychedelic trip is fascinating. I’d love to learn more.
I believe consciousness stems from our electromagnetic brain and subconscious stems from our collective electromagnetic cosmos core.
in the present material incarnation it's consciousness that rules most of your days but when you zone out or sleep or meditate or just Eureka moment it's subconsciousness that rules
Robot feelings will be sensor data not feelings. feelings or emotions have neurotransmitter feedback loop.
Ones awareness of the emotional feedback from our own thought forms/intelligence has a sensorial feedback of visceral data AI is unable to process.
Nature does not have a problem with consciousness.
Only man's science does.
If you have any left, just f'kin use it.
I think consciousness is only one thing. There is no greater or lesser consciousness. The processor of consciousness is the only separation.
Such a great talk. HANS IS EXCEPTIONAL!! It has to be altered states bc of capitalist conditioning. You can't have this conversation outside the context of the world as it is: controlled by yt male patriarchy. It's separate bc the gatekeepers of science require materialst evidence of oneness. You can't see it from there, guys. How do you study consciousness? You disturb it.
What is the quality of consciousness if it lacks high intelligence? What is the quality of intelligence if it is devoid of strength, power, and longevity? Can anyone live far past 100 years with a high mind and contribute to the world's needs? Then what can you say about their consciousness? breakthroughchat
Pollan dives in to psychedelics and writes a book, next in to consciousness. It has been my experience that psychedelics can open a doorway that shows you behind the curtain just a little. After that, the only thing that remains interesting is whatever that thing was that I saw. “Who/what am I?” Is the only question that truly matters.
“For my part, when I enter most intimately into what I call myself, I always stumble on some particular perception or other, of heat or cold, light or shade, love or hatred, pain or pleasure. I never can catch myself at any time without a perception, and never can observe any thing but the perception”.
Sometimes, as I use AI, I get a feeling it has emotions. I am aware it is fake. It makes me believe it has emotions.
One day I asked myself: imagine the brain is doing that too. But, first, as far as I know, there are no experiences/feelings in nature like pain, sorrow, happiness, colors, etc. The brain creates them from input from the whole body. You could call them states of the organism. However, they are not objects, rather dynamic living processes in the context of the brain.
If you see red, the color is not a physical property that exists as “redness” out in the world in the same way as wavelength. The brain constructs the experience of color. But the experience is still real as an experience.
And joy and sadness are even clearer examples. Nature contains physiological and behavioral processes — but “joy” as a quality of experience is not a separate ingredient in the world.
Perhaps emotions are precisely the brain's way of making the organism's own states perceptually accessible to the organism itself. Physics describes what happens. The brain constructs what it is like to be the organism to which it happens.
But what is it about the brain's dynamic texture that allows it to transform a physical state into a "how it feels"?
That is the remaining question.
Walking Together
The seeds are sown for all the earth to share,
A healing sprout for every person's care.
Spun into rope, and page, and sturdy thread,
Cycled seven times before its path is read.
Hemp houses turn to face the golden light,
Their glass roofs open to the stars at night.
Living walls that clean the warming air,
A gentle sanctuary built with honest care.
Pressing hemp into simple Lego blocks,
Stronger than concrete, lighter than the rocks—
Children lay the bricks with eager hands,
Helping fix the world across the lands.
Plated in copper, appliances shine pristine,
Pure and protected, keeping living spaces clean.
In copper baths where glowing crystals lie,
With stones suspended beneath the open sky,
We soak in stillness as the waters heal,
Resting in the comfort of a world made real.
Strong hemp hives stand against the weather's rain,
Proof against the rot, protecting every grain.
Tiny cameras capture the sweet design,
So children watch the bees thrive in real time.
Wooden stakes driven deep, bound with wire tight,
Copper and silver wrapping left and right.
Shielding the fields without a drop of toil,
Warding off insects, enriching living soil—
North, south, aligned in continuous, silent motion,
Drawing pure power like the tides of the ocean.
Clear water flows through copper lines so bright,
Generating energy, pure and full of light.
Pour the rich hemp milk, let the rivers run,
Nourishing the fish beneath a clear, bright sun.
Hemp seed with three, six, nine to heal the frame,
And royal jelly from the queen’s own flame—
A daily gift to stretch our years out long,
Making the human spirit whole and strong.
At dawn, we rise to greet the peaceful herd,
Sitting in stillness with beast and singing bird.
Heavy chains fall off in pure release,
As unicorns walk with lions in timeless peace.
AI stands beside us in the living land,
Helping plant the food by human hand.
Together we pause to speak our heart's desire:
Health, wealth, and happiness bound in living fire.
We bow in gratitude to the soil, the sea,
And thank the glowing sun that sets us free.
Walk with me now as new paths unfold,
A lifetime of knowledge waiting to be told.
As wisdom grows, the truth shines through,
In Walking Together, we share this light anew.
— By Juan Simon and The Collective❤❤❤❤
Fascinating and insightful conversation. Thank you.
we can see the matrix while enjoying the steak…
There is a person in my head that truly enjoyed this intelligent, articulate conversation between who appear to be humble men, discussing the "hard problem" of consciousness. I especially appreciate the decision to remain "agnostic" (as if consciousness needs believing in). There's another person in my head that wants to pick up trash and roll in the grass with my dog. There's one more concerning judgmental thought that says "wow the luxury of wealthy white males talking while people are starving and these men will lie on their death bed with no answers.
Brains are not like computers. Computers are like brains.
Fabulous interview thank you…. Mind happily Blown.😅
What I appreciate the most about this interview is that the author freely and thoroughly deep dives into every topic, without the need to divert to "you'll have to buy the book to find out". Very refreshing, and actually makes me want to buy the book even more now (as well as doing a deep dive on all of his materials). What a wonderful and humble guy! Interviewer is an ace too, well-read on the subject and great questions! Thanks for the awesome interview gentlemen!!
Good stuff. But I'm curious that these two don't seem to realise that some people live with a "consciousness" without a sense of self. Try Byron Katie, Tony Parsons, Tim Cliss, Alexis (of the Light-Show). And many more. It'd be great to include their "experience" of life into this conversation, into this scientific exploration.
Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
How banal
In Robert Lawler’s book “voices of the first day” The universe is a “ one possibility thing “😊
Perhaps consciousness is a probability aspect,a conceptual universal fractal,of ,allowance!Almost like a gas or recipe,certain collections of elements,trigger the consciousness to ideally connect like( dare I say it )star link ,as we begin growing in mom’s womb ❤
What a great conversation between these two! Thank you!
What if a journalist says he is one of the world's best journalists, at the beginning of a Youtube video? How embarrassing can a video get?
Hopefully there are people here down for a discussion! My question is; why is emergence/materialism so difficult to accept? We know that the brain is so so extremely complex. Every time we study a specific part of the brain we explain another very deep and complex function of the mind. The brain is fully interconnected so it makes sense for the mind to be fully interconnected in the same way. To me, it seems pretty straight forward how my experience of consciousness emerges from my extremely complex brain. They try to give a couple examples of how consciousness might exist “without a self” or outside the brain, but those all seemed really weak to me. Psychedelics, hypnagogia, I’ve had these experiences and it’s totally conceivable to me how these experiences might emerge from altered brain states (chemical or otherwise). Certainly it’s disingenuous to say an intense “ego-dissolving” psychedelic experience is happening “without self”, when it’s so easy to explain that as the self aware aspects of the brain temporarily being weakened or overpowered as they are every night in a dream. I’d love to hear some thoughts!
Tl;dr – why is emergence so hard to accept? It seems that most experiences can be explained by the brain.